The End is near here too?

[GoodSoil]

Since becoming Catholic I've recieved no end of Holy Roman junk mail.  I got a magazine yesterday called "Garabandal" about the end times.  Huh? Do Catholics argue about Christ's apocolyptic itenerary like fundies? I also heard some monk had visions of all the popes and we only have 2 left after Benedict.

[sewnsew]

I get no end of Protestant and Catholic labels, cards, medals etc! I am on both lists  

[David W. Emery]

I used to get the same stuff. Once the senders caught on to the fact that I have no money, the deluge quickly dried up.

David

[when we were one]

Good Soil

I suspect the hS is working strongly with you.  I've noticed that many of the sedevacanists quote these fringe prophecies with abandon.  I believe Garabandal has been discredited by the Vatican and the monk with visions was never recognized by the Vatican.  Even if it was, Benedict would be the next to last pope... remember... "only the Father knows."

[GoodSoil]

Thanks guys.  What I'm asking is....I thought Catholics saw the end of the world as none of our business.  It seems like Marian aparitions are mostly apolcolyptic. Is that a trditionalist thing?  Most Catholics I know think this is speculation and we would be better attending to what we can do something about, but most live Catholics are more liberal than I.

[GoodSoil]

Thanks When.  I Hope he is.

[David W. Emery]

I thought Catholics saw the end of the world as none of our business. It seems like Marian aparitions are mostly apolcolyptic. Is that a traditionalist thing?

Judging by the propaganda I’ve seen, the apocalyptic approach seems mostly a schismatic thing. It appears to go along with their rejection of the legitimate Church authority.

The Garabandal phenomena were judged not supernatural by the local bishop. The monk with the “visions of all the popes,” highly touted in the secular press (which should clue you in as to his credibility), was Nostradamus.

David

[GoodSoil]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Talithacumi]

As far as "apparitions" go (usually referring to Marian apparitions), Catholics are neither required nor denied the permission to believe in them - as long as they are free from doctrinal error. The general rule is that if there is nothing erroneous in the message and if the fruit brought about by the apparition is abundant, then there is no reason to keep people from believing in its veracity (I believe that this is known as "negative approbation" by the Magisterium... David or Dave? Is that correct?) As an example, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe brought about much fruit - something like 8 million of the indigenous people of Mexico were purportedly converted to Catholicism through this apparition of Our Lady to Juan Diego in Mexico back in the early 1500's.

And are Catholics as concerned about the end times as Protestants? Of course!  I don't care what religion or belief system a person confesses to, I think all people are concerned with the End Times. I think it's just human nature. The difference, I suppose, is that Catholics are generally less vocal about it, perhaps, and less worried about how it will come about or the imminence of it. Catholics are a little more stoic about it, I think, mostly because (and I'm just surmising here) we aren't as worried about being "saved" as Protestants are. Our belief is that we are already "saved" at Baptism. The rest is a journey where we sometimes lose our way, but as long as we continue to follow the general direction and don't lose sight of where we're headed and we continually strive towards our Goal, we'll get Home one way or another. Yes, some Catholics seem a little more concerned, but I think it's mostly because, just like the Jews knew when the time of the Messiah was near, we also see signs of the time when He will come again. And to say that it's "none of our business," is not entirely... correct, I think. Did not Jesus exhort us to spread the Good News? Why would He do this if we are not to concern ourselves about people's salvation? In that sense, I think it is very much our "business." I think maybe it's that Protestants see the End Times in terms of the entire human population whereas Catholics see it on more of an individual basis regarding one's own life. Maybe Protestants are more in the camp of "Repent! The time is near!" whereas Catholics are more..."No one knows the day or hour." I know I'm simplifying things here, but maybe it's just more of a difference of "emphasis" thing...?

I'm just in a mood to muse, I guess...

JMJ
- Cheri

[GoodSoil]

Thanks Cheri.  I guess the tendancy 2 C signs or conspiracies is a personality thing, not doctrine, a different emphasis, as you say.  Thanks 4 your clarification on the "negative approbition."  It was hard 2 get my head around there being certain popular devotions that the church doesn't take a firm position on. I want people 2 turn to God 2...just don't want 2 become a sedevacantist. I am on occasion scandalized and can see why folks who lack a venue such as this 1 would B influenced by such "revelation".

[Fencersmother]

Protestants also have the Rapture to concern themselves with, and according so some (LaHay & Jenkins come immediately to mind), there is a second chance for those not taken up in the "initial rapture."

I think as Catholics we should be concerned with keeping our souls clean all the time - through confession and frequent Eucharist - because it's true, we don't know the minute or the day.

[David W. Emery]

And are Catholics as concerned about the end times as Protestants? Of course! I don't care what religion or belief system a person confesses to, I think all people are concerned with the End Times. I think it's just human nature. The difference, I suppose, is that Catholics are generally less vocal about it, perhaps, and less worried about how it will come about or the imminence of it. Catholics are a little more stoic about it, I think, mostly because (and I'm just surmising here) we aren't as worried about being "saved" as Protestants are.

I guess the tendancy 2 C signs or conspiracies is a personality thing, not doctrine, a different emphasis, as you say.

Interesting take, Cheri. I think, in terms of human nature “needing to know,” there is a natural tendency, all right. But the reason why Catholics are not generally as anxious as others about the End Times is the saying of our Lord that only the Father knows for sure when the end will come (Mark 13:32–33), and only he knows for sure who will be saved (1 Corinthians 9:27; 10:12; Philippians 3:12–13; Hebrews 4:1; 2 Peter 3:17, etc.). So with us it is primarily a matter of divine revelation, not of culture, personality or human nature. The Protestant anxiety over “being saved” seems, too, not as strong today as in former times, there being two popular views that oppose it: the Calvinist belief in salvation security (“once saved, always saved”) and the liberalist belief in universal salvation (“an eternal hell doesn’t really exist”).

The general rule is that if there is nothing erroneous in the message and if the fruit brought about by the apparition is abundant, then there is no reason to keep people from believing in its veracity (I believe that this is known as "negative approbation" by the Magisterium... David or Dave? Is that correct?)

This is the “working hypothesis” for a phenomenon that is ongoing. However, for any doctrine or phenomenon that has attracted notable interest among the faithful, there must eventually be a “testing of spirits” (1 John 4:1). (Incidentally, the criterion that follows in vv. 2–3 applies only to the heresy that John is calling to the attention of the faithful in the previous verses, which is a form of Gnosticism. Although most cases of purported apparitions involve a certain amount of the gnostic spirit, bishops — being those authorities in the Church who are officially designated to investigate such matters — will need to apply other tests according to the nature of the doctrine or phenomenon that they are investigating.)

As an example, the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe brought about much fruit - something like 8 million of the indigenous people of Mexico were purportedly converted to Catholicism through this apparition of Our Lady to Juan Diego in Mexico back in the early 1500's.

According to the more reliable published figures, the official estimate of conversions is just shy of nine million in the eight years following the apparitions. Others, of course, followed, while a few of the initial ones were repudiated by those who returned to the traditional Indian religions.

I want people 2 turn to God 2...just don't want 2 become a sedevacantist.

Turning to God (conversion of heart) never requires belief in a phenomenon or private revelation, even one approved by the Church.

David

[Dave Armstrong]

I have a short paper relevant to this thread:

The Status of Reputed Marian Apparitions at Garabandal, Spain

[GoodSoil]

Thanks guys.

[Candlemass]

Dave has a "short paper!"