Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 09, 2010, 01:59:18 am
Home Help Search Login Register
News: A different kind of forum providing light rather than heat.

Members: Click here to read unread posts since your last visit.

The Coming Home Network International Forums  |  EXPLORING CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY [Inquiring Dialogue]  |  Human Destiny (Moderators: Dave Armstrong, Jim Anderson)  |  Topic: C. S. Lewis' Belief in Purgatory and Prayer for the Dead: Five Primary Sources « previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: C. S. Lewis' Belief in Purgatory and Prayer for the Dead: Five Primary Sources  (Read 645 times)
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
Posts: 4178


Eclectic Arminian Evangelical; Catholic in 1990


View Profile WWW
« on: June 22, 2010, 09:09:27 pm »

In his fictional book, The Great Divorce (New York: Macmillan, 1946, 39), Lewis portrays the damned (including some near-damned, as it were) making a trip to the outskirts of heaven. One of the spirits is told: "You have been in Hell; though if you don't go back you may call it Purgatory." This theme was expanded later in the book (p. 67):

    "If they leave that grey town behind it will not have been Hell. To any that leaves it, it is Purgatory. And perhaps ye had better not call this country Heaven. Not Deep Heaven, ye understand." (Here he smiled at me). "Ye can call it the Valley of the Shadow of Life. And yet to those who stay here it will have been Heaven from the first. And ye can call those sad streets in the town yonder the Valley of the Shadow of Death: but to those who remain there they will have been Hell even from the beginning."

Here is Lewis' most explicit, extended treatment of the topic of purgatory, followed by an interesting short exposition from his famous semi-catechetical work, Mere Christianity:

    Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him? . . .

        I believe in purgatory. Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on "the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory" as that Romish doctrine had then become. . . .

        The right view returns magnificently in Newman's "Dream." [1] There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer "With its darkness to affront that light." Religion has reclaimed Purgatory.

        Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy"? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first." "It may hurt, you know" -- "Even so, sir."

        I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. . . .

        My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am "coming round," a voice will say, "Rinse your mouth out with this." This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure.

    (Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964, 107-109)

    "Make no mistake," He says, "if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other, than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconceivable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect — until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less."

    (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1960, 172)


Lewis wrote about purgatory after the death of his wife, Helen:

    How do I know that all her anguish is past? I never believed before -- I thought it immensely improbable -- that the faithfulest soul could leap straight into perfection and peace the moment death has rattled in the throat. It would be wishful thinking with a vengeance to take up that belief now . . . I know there are not only tears to be dried but stains to be scoured. . . .

        But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren't.

        Either way, we're for it.

        What do people mean when they say, "I am not afraid of God because I know He is good?" Have they never even been to a dentist?

    (A Grief Observed, New York: Bantam, 1976, 48-51)


In a letter to Sister Penelope, C.S.M.V., written on 17 September 1963, only nine weeks or so before his death, Lewis stated:

   
    If you die first, and if "prison visiting" is allowed, come down and look me up in Purgatory.

    (W. H. Lewis, editor, Letters of C. S. Lewis, New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1966 [revised and enlarged Harvest edition edited by Walter Hooper, 1993], 509)


* * * * *

[1] Here is the passage from Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman's poem The Dream of Gerontius (1865) that Lewis refers to (from "§ 4. Soul"):

    Angel [partial stanza]

    So is it now with thee, who hast not lost
    Thy hand or foot, but all which made up man.
    So will it be, until the joyous day
    Of resurrection, when thou wilt regain
    All thou hast lost, new-made and glorified.
    How, even now, the consummated Saints
    See God in heaven, I may not explicate;
    Meanwhile, let it suffice thee to possess
    Such means of converse as are granted thee,
    Though, till that Beatific Vision, thou art blind;
    For e'en thy purgatory, which comes like fire,
    Is fire without its light.

    Soul

    His will be done!
    I am not worthy e'er to see again
    The face of day; far less His countenance,
    Who is the very sun. Natheless in life,
    When I looked forward to my purgatory,
    It ever was my solace to believe,
    That, ere I plunged amid the avenging flame,
    I had one sight of Him to strengthen me.

    Angel

    Nor rash nor vain is that presentiment;
    Yes,—for one moment thou shalt see thy Lord.
    Thus will it be: what time thou art arraign'd
    Before the dread tribunal, and thy lot
    Is cast for ever, should it be to sit
    On His right hand among His pure elect,
    Then sight, or that which to the soul is sight,
    As by a lightning-flash, will come to thee,
    And thou shalt see, amid the dark profound,
    Whom thy soul loveth, and would fain approach,—
    One moment; but thou knowest not, my child,
    What thou dost ask: that sight of the Most Fair
    Will gladden thee, but it will pierce thee too.

    Soul

    Thou speakest darkly, Angel; and an awe
    Falls on me, and a fear lest I be rash.

    Angel

    There was a mortal, who is now above
    In the mid glory: he, when near to die,
    Was given communion with the Crucified,—
    Such, that the Master's very wounds were stamp'd
    Upon his flesh; and, from the agony
    Which thrill'd through body and soul in that embrace,
    Learn that the flame of the Everlasting Love
    Doth burn ere it transform ...
Logged

I'm happy to offer whatever theological or personal assistance I am able to provide. My blog,  Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2500+ papers and web pages (free) and 20 apologetics books (sale: 15 E-Books -- incl. three paperback bestsellers: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
Candlemass
Member
*
Posts: 979


Catholic Revert


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 02:00:41 am »

I posted an article from CRI that discussed this, last week I think. I never knew he held these beliefs. Once again, the things they don't tell you on Moody radio!  Cheesy
Logged

Howard the Pilgrim
Member
*
Posts: 388



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 02:24:08 am »

Very interesting, Dave.  I am a big Lewis fan.  And, Mark, it isn't it also interesting how a lot of Christian groups love to claim him for their own even though if they knew the entirety of his doctrinal beliefs they might be quite shocked.

When I was an elder in a non-denominational, Bible church and we were re-writing our constitution, there were some leaders who wanted to have us take a pre-trib, pre-mill stance and make that belief a requirement for leadership.  I asked them if they would really want to exclude someone like Lewis from our leadership team.  They saw my point and dropped their suggestion.
Logged
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
Posts: 4178


Eclectic Arminian Evangelical; Catholic in 1990


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 04:27:45 pm »

Quote
I posted an article from CRI that discussed this, last week I think.

That was indeed the inspiration that led me to further document all of this. I found a few additional tidbits from some of the Lewis books in my library.
Logged

I'm happy to offer whatever theological or personal assistance I am able to provide. My blog,  Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2500+ papers and web pages (free) and 20 apologetics books (sale: 15 E-Books -- incl. three paperback bestsellers: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
Candlemass
Member
*
Posts: 979


Catholic Revert


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 10:08:27 pm »

Wasn't his beliefs about Purgatory in line w/Catholic doctrine?
Logged

Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
Posts: 4178


Eclectic Arminian Evangelical; Catholic in 1990


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 11:17:40 pm »

Pretty much, in their essence, but he did get in a little dig about "Romish" doctrine. Interestingly, confessional Anglicanism actually forbade belief in purgatory, so Lewis dissented a bit in believing as he did.
Logged

I'm happy to offer whatever theological or personal assistance I am able to provide. My blog,  Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2500+ papers and web pages (free) and 20 apologetics books (sale: 15 E-Books -- incl. three paperback bestsellers: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
Candlemass
Member
*
Posts: 979


Catholic Revert


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 11:57:38 pm »

From what I read in the CRI article the "Romish dig" was about the nature of Purgatory. That Rome taught it was punishment for sin and he believed it to be a cleansing process, but isn't that what the Church teaches?
Logged

David W. Emery
Network Helper
Posts: 3915



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 12:02:02 am »

Both/and, Mark. We are cleansed by voluntarily suffering the consequences of sin.

David
Logged
1infaith
Member
*
Posts: 30


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 10:25:41 pm »

hi everyone
       for a long while i thought the forum was gone...i didn't know what happened...anyway....the tribulation spoken by those rapture ready groups.......seems they could equate that with purgatory.......there will be suffering...so they believe....just a thought.....i know they don't believe in purgatory........faith
Logged
Christine Ann
Member
*
Posts: 346


Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic May 15 2007


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 10:52:51 pm »

Thanks for the quotations from C.S. Lewis, Dave.  I'm always interested to know what others believe about purgatory.  It seems that Lewis had a fairly clear view of the suffering.  I believe, as does David, that Purgatory is both a cleansing, but also great suffering.  

The realization of our sins and their consequences....how painful that will be before the perfect justice of a holy God.   Deep contrition and repentance will do the cleansing.  But we also must remember that we will be cleansed and then infused in the love and grace of God in perfect union with our Lord.

Can you imagine what joy and wonder that will be?  Perhaps we can't know until it happens to our soul, but I think I get a bit of the joy after confession of sin  before the priest, and I am absolved of my sin.  Burden is lifted and my soul feels cleansed! Christ in His mercy has forgiven!  The clean, pure wonder after purgatory must be incredible, well beyond our comprehension.  And, it is to be forever.....

Just some of my meandering thoughts...

Christine Ann
Logged
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
Posts: 4178


Eclectic Arminian Evangelical; Catholic in 1990


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2010, 04:20:29 am »

Quote
Just some of my meandering thoughts...

And we always like to hear them!
Logged

I'm happy to offer whatever theological or personal assistance I am able to provide. My blog,  Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2500+ papers and web pages (free) and 20 apologetics books (sale: 15 E-Books -- incl. three paperback bestsellers: $25)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
Christine Ann
Member
*
Posts: 346


Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic May 15 2007


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2010, 05:14:58 pm »

Thanks, Dave.  Sometimes I just get so full of love and joy being in Christ's Church and hoping for heaven, that I need to express it!

Christine
Logged
Steven Barrett
Member
*
Posts: 2140


God's sunlight always follows our storms.


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2010, 10:44:53 pm »

Excellent points Christine,

It takes a much more loving Church to have explored, explained and made clear the teaching about purgatory as that place where God does indeed give us the ultimate “second chance” as a lot of lay folks might be tempted to portray purgatory. But that’s not the story, of course. If you’ve “passed the test” on your moment before the Lord, and there’s still got some unfinished business left behind, un-confessed sins of expressed anger, harsh words and thoughts, whatever they might be, it’s just going to take longer to get into Heaven itself. You’re going in, however. That’s the good news. The “bad news,” so to speak, usually rests on the duration. Yet, haven’t we been told over and over, as both Catholics and Protestants, time with the Lord is so much different than it is for us? If St. Peter tells any of us we’ve been handed down a 500 year “sentence” to Purgatory, relax. So long as we’re eventually getting into Heaven, we can, as the old prison saying goes, “do that sentence standing on our heads.”

Consider the drastic difference between our teachings about Purgatory and what the Protestants have to say, especially the more evangelical variety. Heaven or Hell. In or out. But if you’ve been “saved” in some churches, you’ll get into Heaven no matter what hell you left on earth for others. Once Saved Always Saved, the ultimate “Get Out of Hell Free” card. What happens if a Protestant didn’t belong to an  OSAS, yet still evangelical local church and all they had was pretty much what Fr. Corapi reminds us (sometimes in stark dramatical ways n’ gestures, “You’re eventually going to wind up in either Heaven or Hell) and minus Fr. Corapi’s quick mentions of purgatory to soften the edges of such either/or situation before us?

It’s either heaven or hell. Ah, but what if that person had a non-evangelical baptism, and hadn’t gotten around to publicly declaring whether or not he’d “accepted Jesus as  only Salvation and personal savrior” to his board of deacons or even a minister or fellow layman in a deathbed testimony? Sadly enough, I even heard a daughter, an above middle-aged daughter, consign her mother to the infernal regions simply because she had “no sure knowledge” of any attempt by her mother to become a Christian. (And as you know, there could be lots of reasons, ranging from say her mother’s refusal to make it “official,” to faulty record-keeping on the family’s or  church’s part. This woman’s  cold willingness to accept her mother’s flaming conclusion wasn’t an isolated event. I’d overhear casual conversations or be drawn into them by people who wouldn’t bat an eye as they (albeit) sadly would sigh and say, “It’s hard to say if he/she died a Christian” even though that deceased (or left/moved away) individual truly demonstrated Christ working through his/her life.”

So when I’d say, “Well, I’m glad I still believe in purgatory because it offers a lot more hope than what I’m seeing here, (but in a friendly sort of way as to say, “c’mon, stop the crepe hanging stuff) …” some of the rolled eyes, giggles and squirming seats I got in return eventually did much to contribute to my desire to return home. In some areas God’s teachings are indeed black and white. But our entire lives are not lived out in entirely black and white ways and to be judged in such a cold parallel fashion.

What I think a lot of Protestants miss out on concerning Purgatory is simple beauty of what God has given us time and time and time over again; second chances. Where’s that “second chance” for the Protestant who hasn’t confessed, and who like everyone else, isn’t allowed to enter Heaven with a soul besmirched by sin? My good friend and former boss at FBC said he believes all who’ll enter Heaven will still have some singe’d gowns. He’s a good man and I have no doubts he and his wife will enter Heaven with or w/o a gown that’s been dry-cleaned in advance. Why do I say this? He lives his faith. He breathes it in everything he does. It surely showed and I put in many hours working alongside him.

What killed me was the umbrage some would toss out in discussions about our “outside the Church … no salvation” teaching rule without even going so far to understood what it really means – while at the same time passing almost casual judgment to the final destination of a Jew’s or Muslim’s soul. Yes, Jesus said he was the way to the Father and the Light of the World and many other “hard to miss” descriptions. But our Lord was also loving enough to understand that not everybody comes to know him in the same way, place and time. Ah, but humans, no matter how well they might think they’re thinking on behalf of others, will say, “Gee, yes, there are some devout and sincere Jews and Muslims, but …” Too bad their “buts” reflect their inabilities to see that we Christians have done one hell of a job making it almost offensively impossible for either Jews or Muslims to consider converting to Christianity. The scars of the Holocaust won’t heal for centuries any more than than those of the Inquisition have healed. (They’re still used and thrown back at us with effectiveness, too.) Nor will many Muslims forget what the [officially Christian] British and French empires did during the last two centuries alone, never mind the Crusades. It’s by far easier to forgive once we’ve learned what forgiveness is about and for. Forgetting the awful trespasses and horrors of the past require extra-Divine Strength. Forgiveness takes the burden of the sin  off our shoulders: Forgetting is what allows us to heal internally so we, only after asking for God’s assistance,  can reach those deep wounds places in our lives where the searing pains from our past(s) may finally be healed.

The problem with the either/or, OSAS and “Purgatory-less” denominations is that they leave anybody who hasn’t lived a life predicated on the knowledge that we can, through our horrible deeds, which we neglected to seek forgiveness for, (procrastination, stubbornness or ignorance of a certain misdeed’s actual “sinful” nature) lose our salvation. When I’d hear people say with sincerity that the baptized Stalin and Hitler, (not to mention other notorious examples of a Christian’s soul- life badly derailed) will be in Heaven awaiting me, I thought I stepped into a nuthut.  Even when I replied, “You mean to tell me that Hitler could be in  Heaven while good and Holy Rabbis and Imans will wind up in hell, all because they weren’t baptized and accepted Christ (in confirmation?)” 

I think we’re going to be wonderfully surprised to see who “makes the cut.”  Granted they don’t believe in Purgatory the way we do, but who are we to say that they’re not trying to? It was this refusal to even entertain that much of a compromise that drove me batty. And the same goes for any Catholic triumphalist who’ll use the “nulla solis…” line and make sure it excludes non-Roman-Catholics, forgetting in much the same way many Protestants do, that our Church wasn’t founded in the same ways that the Protestant evangelical denominations and sects were and continue being formed much like a dividing mass of cells.
 We teach that Jesus founded only ONE Church and the Catholic Church is that very same Church so for somebody to leave “the Church” it’s not as they’re prone to misinterpret as leaving First Baptist for Second Anglican for Third Congregationalist and Tenth Unitarian-Universalist.” It’s leaving Christianity altogether. Of course it also rankles them to know we consider them as members, however separated. They want to be completely independent. That’s not even Biblical because it directly contradicts what St. Paul said about the dangers of looking at the Church as if the hip bone didn’t have to be connected to the leg bone, etc. Everything has to be connected in order for it to accomplish the most for everyone.

We have our principles, our dogmas/doctrines, Catechism, canon laws, and of course the Holy Liturgy which is a “Passion Play,” representing the Bible writ-large; yet,  certainly not hidden within all those teachings remains the primacy of Love. America might be, like F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote, not a place for second-chances, but our Church is, even when she takes unpopular stands on controversial issues (abortion and illegal immigration for examples) and she doesn’t offer the same cookie-cutter simple solutions to life’s deepest questions or back off from teaching “difficult” concepts such as Purgatory because these concepts cut diametrically across the growing American trend towards making Keep It Simple Stupid a near-national dogmatic statement on its own "merits." It takes love to have the guts to stick to love when the most cowardly thing we could do is to cave in the predominate national zeitgeist or groupthink.

The cruel irony for those who sniff at Purgatory is that they have no idea of just how humane it really is. Certainly a lot more spiritually egalitarian. Besides, the pains of Purgatory’s flames are nothing like those whose  souls are condemned to endure for eternity. Purgatory’s only a temporary stop; next up is Heaven. But what a beautiful “end of the line station to roll into.”                                   
Logged

"This phrase 'rejoice ever more' shall never be out of my heart, memory, our mouth again as long as I live, if I can help it."  John Adams, (c 1801)  - From David McCullough's book "John Adams."
Candlemass
Member
*
Posts: 979


Catholic Revert


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2010, 01:06:06 pm »

Another great article on the subject;

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp
Logged

Pages: [1] Print 
The Coming Home Network International Forums  |  EXPLORING CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY [Inquiring Dialogue]  |  Human Destiny (Moderators: Dave Armstrong, Jim Anderson)  |  Topic: C. S. Lewis' Belief in Purgatory and Prayer for the Dead: Five Primary Sources « previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!