Protestant seminarian here

[JillD]

jjoelness wrote: 

I'm afraid I might have to do both.

As the blessed John Paul II said, and I have taken this to heart in my journey to the Catholic Church, "BE NOT AFRAID!!!"

You are on an incredible journey, Joel.  Surprises await you,  a bursting forth of joy from your heart as God's mysteries unfold and come into focus.   Look forward to this journey with great expectations and keep your eyes open!

God bless you as He unfolds His plan for your and your wife's lives.

Jill

[True Image]

Joel,

Welcome to CHNI! :waving:

 I will pray for you as you discern God's will for you.:praying:

Anne

[CajunRick]

Did I mention Im in the National Guard as a chaplain candidate?  …It is a assumed that chaplain candidates will become ordained, which is not a path open to me in the Catholic Church.

Actually, it might well be. 

There are Catholic Churches (other than Roman Catholic) which permit a married priesthood.  Check out ByzCath for links to the Byzantine Catholic tradition, as well as the other Catholic Churches in union with Rome.  They are fully Catholic, just not "Roman Catholic" (or more correctly, not Latin Rite Catholic).

There is the Pastoral Provision by which ministers of some faiths have been permitted to pursue ordination to the priesthood in the Latin Rite even though they are married.  Pope John Paul II created this provision specifically for Anglican/Episcopal priests, but it was broadened to apply to ministers of other faiths as well.  The process is rigorous and requires the support of your local bishopand a ruling from Rome, so it's not an easy path but it is possible.  Check out the Pastoral Provision web site.

Third, married men may be ordained as deacons in the Latin Rite.  Deacons are ordained clergy but are not permitted to celebrate mass or hear confession.  However, they are permitted to function as chaplains in many areas.

And finally, certification is available to lay people through the National Association of Catholic Chaplains.

So never say never.  If God is truly calling you (to ministry and to the Catholic faith), God will provide a way.

[EMarshallBuckles]

 Nice to see someone else from my tradition here. You are absolutely right about finding work. I'm not originally from California, I'm from the East coast (Mid-Atlantic). Both locations have been very accepting of my wife. She has even sat in on a few of my ordination interviews, and her Catholic faith was not an issue.

But...many protestant congregations almost expect the minister's wife to be some "free labor." We have talked about this, and I have made it clear that - if I continue on the path I am on - she will be part of my church on her own terms. She will not interview with me, and they will not tell her what to do. Well they can try, but I've been know to stand up to oppressive employers.

Thanks for your reply.

Oh yes, of course, I am sure that some of the Disciples of Christ Churches and perhaps some more liberal Christian Churches may be accepting of your wife's religious views and I, personally, would agree with that supporting them in that.  On the other hand, as you know, some of the more conservative Disciples of Christ churches and independent Christian Churches would probably expect the wife to be "free labor", as you mention, and would expect her to uphold the Christian Church or Disciples of Christ church views (I have known of some Christian Church people who think that everybody is going to hell except for Christian Church people - I think that they will be very surprised when - and if, ha, ha - they get to heaven).  I have known of Baptist churches like that, too, sadly.  By the way, in my mid 20s, due to some concerns I had about my local Christian Church in which I was raised, I left it and, later, spent some time in an Episcopal Church. My Rector (the head Priest) was a former Baptist and the Associate Rector, who later became the Rector when the then Rector resigned to go into education, was, like me, raised in the Christian Church denomination. When he joined the Episcopal Church, his father disowned him and, when he would see him on the street in their hometown, his father would cross the street to avoid talking to him.  The Senior Minister Emeritus, who was Senior Minister in my Christian Church when I was growing up, is very anti-Catholic. He would not be mean to anyone, however, he is in total disagreement with the Catholic faith and says so, sad to say.

Well, anyway, I do wish you and your wife well and pray for God's blessings upon you two.  I would kindly, respectfully urge you to consider CajunRick's advice. You all may do well to consider one of the denominations which are closely connected with the Catholic Church particularly if you are considering National Guard service.  May God bless and guide you. 

[BD]

My wife grew up Catholic and we chose the Mennonite Church when we were living in Pasadena while I attended Fuller Seminary.  I wonder if our stories overlap in this way: same seminary? same tradition for our wives?

If so, the difference between us is that you have had the wisdom to attend Mass with your wife, while we chose a new church together.  Now I'm the one trying to woo her back home.

I encourage you to stop pursuing ordained ministry at this point.  Continue studying, if God so leads you.  It was through my Protestant theological studies that I discovered a path to the Church (a path I am still tip-toing along).  But I am not sure it is fair to future churches for you to continue seeking ordination and gain ministry positions while undergoing this intense spiritual formation that, I believe, is calling you into a new direction. 

Speaking from personal experience, I teach theology at a Protestant liberal arts college.  I think I am a good teacher.  But I am not what I could be precisely because I have been wrestling with a calling away from the denomination that runs the college.  To the degree that I am turned inwards and focused mostly on my own spiritual discernment, I have not been fully free to give of myself and equip my students to serve the church.  I wonder if something similar would happen if you pursued ordained Protestant ministry...would you be able to shepherd?

Brett

[jjoelness]

What a small world. You dont happen to be in Pasadena still are you?

I appreciate your response, but as I wrestle with this discernment process I can't fathom being anything other than an ordained minister - which is the primary struggle on this path.

If the Roman Rite allowed a married clergy I would start the process to enter into full communion today. Sure, lay ministries are very worthy, but God is leading me to the ordainined ministry (in whatever church he happens to be leading me).

I wonder that my call to the Catholic Church is larger than me as an individual. I do not believe that the ecumenism of return is the path to Christian unity. (The belief that Christian unity will only occur when all Protestants hang their head down and rejoin, individually or as churches, the Roman Catholic Church) Whatever decision I make will not make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps my individual struggle will be a catalyst for me to work toward a unity that is larger than myself.

[EMarshallBuckles]

Joel, I strongly support your right to believe as you choose and so forth.  Even so, my experience with a number of protestant denominations is that they are - not all yet many of them, especially many Christian Churches -very likley to expect you to be "down with", that is, to be totally supportive of their theology and policies.  While supporting your right to believe as you choose and in sympathy with you in various ways, even so, and kindly yet frankly speaking, if you continue on a path leading to Christian Church ordination, I will sadly predict that you are going to be in for a lot of frustration and disappointment if you regard youself as a person of Roman Catholic belief.  Not trying to be rude, not trying to be hurtful, AM hoping to save you some disappointment and frustration.  If you have not already done so, if I were you, I would strongly consider contacting Marcus and his staff at the Coming Home Network and see what can be worked out to help you possibly (not sure if it is possible, at this point, but wouldn't hurt to try) become a Roman Catholic Priest although married, or at least a Deacon.  I wish you well, I pray for God's blessings upon you and your good wife, yet, even so, if I were you, given your beliefs, I would start my path out of the protestant churches and into the Roman Catholic Church.  Best wishes to you. 

[Steven Barrett]

It was great to see your post and advice to that young seminarian. Putting him along the path to Marcus' attention was a good move.

Staying out of harms way from tornadoes is another good move, to say the very least.

Here's another  good challenge for you being a good Episcopalian. Since J.L. Packer's now a "free agent," I think it's time we do our best to get him signed up on our team.

At least we can promise him and that promising young Protestant seminarian in California the truth that's not been nuanced, espcially the newer and more promising cadre of seminarians graduating: Pope John Paul II/Benedict XVI Seminarians. They'll make him feel like's rediscovered that "old time religion" for sure.

[sewnsew]

Also is there a Byzantine rite church near you? They are part of the Catholic Communion and I believe allow married priests(?)

[sewnsew]

Check this site out:http://www.deacontomonline.com/askthedeacon.html  I know that in our parsih the priests could not mange without the deacons. A lot of hands on pastoral work is carried out by our deacons- As you know they can't hear confessions- can't celebrate the mass or annoit the sick but they can preside over weddings, funerals, baptisms, blessings and counselling.  Many of the duties within their scope seem similar to most non liturgical protestant pastoral roles, at least in seems that way to me- though never having been a member of one of those churches I could be wrong. i know that the deacons also have other day jobs ( or are retired from them in our parish) but that too is a similar burden that many protestant pastors face especially in small congregations who can't fully support them.

[JillD]

kimdyuma wrote:

I know that in our parish the priests could not manage without the deacons.

AMEN to that, Kim!  I hate to sound like a broken record, but our 4 parishes are sharing 3 priests.  20,000 Catholics in this area.  16 Masses between them each weekend.  Our deacons are a true and essential Godsend!

And I am amazed at how much work it takes to become a DEACON!  I would not be surprised to find that it's harder and takes longer to become a deacon in the Catholic Church than a pastor in a Protestant church, even one who desires to be a well-educated pastor.  (Actually, I know it takes next to nothing to lead a Protestant church.  Just find a group who like what you're saying and start preachin'!)

Jill

[jjoelness]

JillD wrote:

I know it takes next to nothing to lead a Protestant church.  Just find a group who like what you're saying and start preachin'!

That statement is quite hurtful to be honest. I cannot speak of all Protestant denominations but mine inparticular requires a 4-year undergraduate degree and a 4 year masters of divinity of degree. I have been studying for the ministry for 8 years of my life after high school.

There is a quite rigorous discernment process which must be confirmed by my home (sponsoring) pastor, deacons and elders of the congregation, our local bishop and the regional commission on the ministry.

Following my education and ordination/discernment process I will then have to be "up to snuf" with any local congregation I wish to lead. The bishop doesn't just place our ministers somewhere, they have to pass yet another interview process with whatever congregation they hope to work for.

Belittling the Protestant brothers and sisters and our ministers sure isn't helpful here.

[jjoelness]

Also is there a Byzantine rite church near you? They are part of the Catholic Communion and I believe allow married priests(?)

Thanks kim for your two posts. I visited my first Byzantine rite church yesterday actually. I wrote about it my blog.

It was a bit foriegn to me, and Im not sure that I could find an easy way to enter into an Eastern Church. They are very culturally conditioned. I'm not being xenophobic, I'm just acknowleding the difficulty present in any process to dive into another culture.

As far as deacons go - I am far too young and enter the diaconate is not an option for me at this time. I would be open to it in the future, but that opportunity sure doesn't solve my present dilemna.

And I just want to be clear: being a priest or deacon is not something I "want" to do, or that I "choose" to do. I believe it is something God has choosen (called) for me.

[rbo4u2]

jjoelness wrote:

JillD wrote:

I know it takes next to nothing to lead a Protestant church.  Just find a group who like what you're saying and start preachin'!

That statement is quite hurtful to be honest. I cannot speak of all Protestant denominations but mine inparticular requires a 4-year undergraduate degree and a 4 year masters of divinity of degree. I have been studying for the ministry for 8 years of my life after high school.

There is a quite rigorous discernment process which must be confirmed by my home (sponsoring) pastor, deacons and elders of the congregation, our local bishop and the regional commission on the ministry.

Following my education and ordination/discernment process I will then have to be "up to snuf" with any local congregation I wish to lead. The bishop doesn't just place our ministers somewhere, they have to pass yet another interview process with whatever congregation they hope to work for.

Belittling the Protestant brothers and sisters and our ministers sure isn't helpful here.

Amen brother.  While there are denominations and sects that elevate people to the pastoral position, most of the legitimate denominations require rigorous training,   seminary masters and doctoral training depending on the particular congregations.  I dare say many of the men and women coming out of places like Fuller Theological Seminary are highly qualified, highly educated in all the disciplines of the faith.  To belittle the work of all these people, regardless of how much they differ from the Catholic doctrine is insulting.  
Great men like our own Marcus Grodi among others like Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft and many more great Catholic scholars praise the training they have received from Protestant schools.  So Joel, I'm with you.  But I also have recognized the theological shortcomings of the Protestant strain of thought and am moving in the direction of Rome carrying with me all the great theological truths taught to me in Protestant teaching that harmonize with the Catholic Church.

Rich

[jjoelness]

rbo4u2 wrote

But I also have recognized the theological shortcomings of the Protestant strain of thought and am moving in the direction of Rome carrying with me all the great theological truths taught to me in Protestant teaching that harmonize with the Catholic Church.

Rich

I am with you there. I wonder that I might be too young and optimistic for my own good. But I still see some great hope within my own tradition for reconcilliation with Rome. Though there are some serious defincies (The unused portions of the Eucharists are dumped in the garbage and poured into the sewer in most congregations - which will certainly NOT be okay in any church I serve)

I am hopeful that someone like me, who has one foot on either side, can help to bring some Catholic understanding to my tradition. (Whether I personally return to Rome or not) But again - young and optimistic.