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The Coming Home Network International Forums  |  EXPLORING CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY [Inquiring Dialogue]  |  The Mass, Liturgy, Liturgical Calendar, and Sacramentals (Moderators: Rob, Dave Armstrong, Jim Anderson)  |  Topic: Kneeling at the Altar Rail to Receive the Eucharist « previous next »
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Author Topic: Kneeling at the Altar Rail to Receive the Eucharist  (Read 2862 times)
Estelle
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2010, 02:00:45 am »

It was such a delight to see a Communion Rail in the church where my son was married last July. Unfortunatly it wasn't used during the Nuptual Mass. All things considered I'm thankful that he and his wife agreed to a Nuptial Mass at all. There was a time there I doubted they would even get married in church.
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sewnsew
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2010, 04:11:35 am »

Kneeling at the Altar is one of the very few things I miss from my Angliacan days.
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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2010, 08:35:18 pm »

The traditional architecture and furnishing of Roman Catholic churches -- that is, the sanctuary set apart from the nave by means of an altar rail -- along with the fact that the priest is supposed to remain in the sanctuary from the beginning of Mass until the end, results in some rather phenomenal mystical theology, in my opinion.  Think of it this way:

The congregation is in the nave (the body of the Church), while the priest is in the sanctuary.  The priest is there 'in persona Christi', in the person of Christ.  The congregation does not enter the sanctuary, and the priest does not leave the sanctuary.  The contact between the two happens at the boundary between the two spaces, the altar rail, when the priest gives Holy Communion -- the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to the faithful.  The altar rail is a sign of the Incarnation, of the meeting of the Divine the human, of Heaven reaching down to earth; this sign is magnified by the even greater sign, the Eucharist Itself.
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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2010, 08:43:25 pm »

Beautiful reflection, Jeff. Thanks. I think it is a far better way to do it, and so am quite happy with the arrangement in my parish. Perhaps altar rails will make a comeback. I hope so.
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Estelle
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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2010, 09:19:36 pm »

That was incredible, Jeff, thank you!

I'm with you, Dave. I miss the altar rails.
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Steven Barrett
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2010, 12:39:57 am »

Christine Ann, don't worry about the length of your bow. My knees don't know how to painlessly kneel anymore. It's what we bring to the altar area and more importantly what we take back inside, especially our hearts, that counts. Well upholstered kneelers with the rails would be a Godsend for so many.

S.
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2010, 04:54:25 am »

I miss the rail as well and pray for their return to the church's architectural norms.  The return of the patens would also bring some sense of reverence for the Host, the care for the sacredness of the Eucharist.  Provided there is at least some catechizing for the Items and their meaning and symbolism connected with them.  

Don't just bring them back COLD and not explain their significance in worship!
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Estelle
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2010, 03:35:21 pm »

One of the men at church must agree with you David (as I do) because he always puts his hand under his chin as a paten when he receives Communion. He is just awesome to see!
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2010, 12:33:47 am »


I recall Communion in our parish in the 1960's was not done row by row, but more like an "Altar Call" ( a real one  Wink )  All those receiving would just leave their pews in no particular order and stand somewhere along the altar until a spot opened up where you could kneel. 

I believe that anyone experiencing it in this way feels less like they're part of an assembly line. For the time, as I recall, it certainly had a more "charismatic" feel about it than the way it's done currently.


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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2010, 01:35:49 am »

This is recollection as well. 
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2010, 02:25:02 am »

I clearly remember that one Sunday when the Baptist congregation my family worshipped at decided to hold a “walk up” communion where the Deacons or other prominentes handed out the little plastic cups with Welch’s and a laywoman’s sour dough bread which was broken off and pieces handed to the people in line. It was as if the French, Russian revolutions and counter-Reformation and all sorts of other malefactorum, forum of maliceaforethoughtums and whatever else  one could imagine the old timers were thinking that hit them between the eyes. Aghast, one member simply walked out and he was a longtime contributing member. He came back later. But more and more of the old timers, the ones with the wherewithal began to slip away, for good.

Although I had no problems with the “newer way,” which was hardly “new” to me or my wife, I couldn’t help feeling for the old timers because one thing after another was being done in such a near rapid-fire way to demonstrate the power of the far more informal and “with it” contemporary crowd. They’d lost a lot of the architectural flavor of the church, a nice (albeit modern) wooden wraparound curving raised pulpit was hauled out, then the choir loft, the electric guitars and drums took their place and before the old timers knew it, they were expected, with nary any thought given to prep them for this change (which flopped)…to accept a pattern of receiving their once-a-month communion, (no matter if it wasn’t more than “symbolic,” it was of great value and too much significance to downplay through too much informality … that was a lot of them (rightly) considered “over the top.” (Even our former Episcopal parish kept its nice communion rail that could be disassembled temporarily when necessarily. Not so for this Baptist congregation.

Worse yet from my perspective. A friend of mine, a writer from our area who was visiting back in the area, ran into me at our local Barnes n’ Noble and asked me what happened to the pulpit, choir loft, etc., When he told me it was his father who built them, my stomach sank. It was about that time I was timing the sermons and looking for the exit signs, in more than a matter of speaking. At the time, I had no idea where the pieces wound up; but when I later found out, I wish I hadn’t fearing another time might pop up where I’ll meet my friend and as my departed father would say, “Hell, you’re a lousy liar because we can see it a mile away.” LOL

Even though I empathize with the “old timers” insofar as how they honestly perceive their congregational culture and patter of worship’s being gradually pulled apart and overwhelmed by the “contemporary” crowd … I’m glad the congregation gave the sit down ‘n pass-it-around communion a rest. One is simply EXPECTED to take communion, whether he or she wants to or not. “So what”  a lot of them reason, if you’re a Catholic or Orthodox Christian for whom it’s wrong to take Baptist communion, “communion’s communion.” Remember, this is coming from the same source that allows a lot of its members to openly question the Christianity of Catholicism, and our infant baptisms.  Some days, depending on whose sitting next to you, or bringing the trays to the library/mothers’ quiet room, it’s very difficult to back off or simply back away and out without risking a scene. At least if you didn’t choose to go up and receive communion because your heart was troubled due to a tiff with the spouse or kids, or a guilty conscience was eating away at you, you could away sit quietly and nobody would DARE give you the “nudging eye” or tug on the elbow to say, “c’mon, let’s go up.” That’s not how adults treat other adults. If “guilt” is not to be stressed due to St. Paul’s reading of Calvary, and many of the more dedicated evangelicals are both quick and wont to point that out with vigor, then why on earth do they allow for this practice to be used as a means of enforcing the reception of communion, especially a totally symbolic communion that’s only given once a month if that often in some local churches?! (Nor should adults use the “welcome sign in sheets” as a means of parish social control.) You’ve got to have a very perceptive eye while you’re in some of these evangelical congregations to what’s really going on under the obvious stage scene, or be out long enough to see the games of social and theological control that the “leadership teams” had no qualms in using and the general membership either chose to ignore or sometimes naively accept.

For all the age-old carping we Catholics and our more liturgical Protestant friends endure for our rituals, supposed laundry lists of “works,” and whatever else that’s bugging some of the most contemporary of contemporary Protestants—especially the—“just give me Jesus” folks, we practically live on “easy street.” So fittingly, we don’t pressure or even use the slightest expressions of expectations that all the good folks to our rights or lefts will [naturally] accept our Communion. No doubt they mean well. On the other hand, I could very well do without all the rigors of an enforced pseudo-formality of such rampant informality. Sure looks and walks n’ talks like an oxymoron in print. It’s worse in practice. I’m sure some of you know what I’m referring to because you’ve experienced it. It’s the way things are done nowadays, in and out of church. Too bad so much of it’s occurring in churches everywhere.

I’m an unabashed traditionalist Catholic “Tory” but not to the point where I could stomach the finagling of what should be the most solemn rituals for reasons of  maintaining congregational control.
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Estelle
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2010, 08:56:27 pm »

Our church building will be 100 years old in 2012, though the parish is older by a few decades. Last night was the preliminary meeting to start planning our celebrations. Several structural changes were mentioned. I asked about installing altar rails and the reason I got a negative answer was a real eye opener. According to the pastor the only thing the altar rail symbolized was the separation between the "holy priest" and the "unholy congregation" (my quotes not his). Then he said the one sentence that convinced me it was a bad idea. He said,"Why would you want to erect a fence except to keep people out?'
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2010, 11:24:49 pm »

Quote
According to the pastor the only thing the altar rail symbolized was the separation between the "holy priest" and the "unholy congregation"…. He said,"Why would you want to erect a fence except to keep people out?'

Some would say that the rail not a barrier, but a place at the table, that standing in line reminds them of a soup kitchen rather than a banquet with the King of Kings. I will only note that, having entered the Church a few years before the dismantling of altar rails began, I never felt “shut out” of the holy sacrifice of the Mass because of an altar rail. On the contrary, the rail reminded me of the sacredness of the place and of the purpose for which we assembled.

Does this priest not understand that the church sanctuary is the Christian descendant of the Holy Place within the tabernacle, an area reserved to the priests? (For the reason only a priest could enter the Holy Place, and even then not into the Holy of Holies, see Leviticus 16; compare Hebrews 9:1–10)

The ancestor of the altar rail was the iconostasis (still used by the eastern rites), showing that in the sacred liturgy we actually enter heaven, the abode of God, even as the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes it (12:18–24 — and note well vv. 20–21, for according to Jesus in Matthew 12:6, “something greater than the temple is here,” as the author proceeds to point out in the succeeding verses). The iconostasis was followed, in the west, by the rood screen and finally the altar rail. To “break down all barriers” symbolizes a loss of the sense of the sacred, and it is clear that this generation knows a great deal about that phenomenon.

David
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Talithacumi
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2010, 12:01:36 am »

Some would say that the rail is not a barrier, but a place at the table, that standing in line reminds them of a soup kitchen rather than a banquet with the King of Kings. I will only note that, having entered the Church a few years before the dismantling of altar rails began, I never felt “shut out” of the holy sacrifice of the Mass because of an altar rail. On the contrary, the rail reminded me of the sacredness of the place and of the purpose for which we assembled.
...To “break down all barriers” symbolizes a loss of the sense of the sacred, and it is clear that this generation knows a great deal about that phenomenon.

David

Amen, David!

And I think there are far too many priests these days who try to "fit in" with the crowd. A priest should stand out. He is supposed to be in persona Christi, is he not? Only the priest is allowed to enter the "Holy of Holies", and I think the communion rail symbolizes that.

Estelle's priest says: "Why would you want to erect a fence except to keep people out?" I say, sometimes when you try to mix too much, and you paint everyone with the same brush, you don't get a beautifully painted picture, you get mud. Besides, fences can be good things... When I look outside, there's a fence that separates my back yard from the neighboring farmer's pasture. The fence keeps the cows out of my yard, not to mention what they leave behind after they eat. The fence keeps my side clean and pure. The fence separates the common from the special. Some priests may want to lower themselves, but frankly, I don't want a priest to lower himself to my level. I want to look up to him; I want him to be elevated, for if he is not, then who will stand for the rest of us common lay people? Who will lead and guide us? Who will act on our behalf, and also on God's behalf for us? Certainly the answer is Jesus, but Jesus is in Heaven preparing a place for us and has sent His priests to act in His stead. They need to be outstanding models of holiness as much as possible. They are not meant to be common. There's enough common. We need priests to stand out.

Yep. I like the rail... But hey, that's just me talkin'...

JMJ
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Estelle
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2010, 12:56:17 am »

I totally agree that the priest is in "persona Christi" but Jesus never excluded anyone from coming to Him. I think that's what Monsignor Chris had in mind. The first time I ran onto the Sanctuary I was desperate to ask the priest a question and he had gone back into the Sacristy. I thought I'd missed my chance when it had taken all my courage (never in very big supply) to work up to even attempting to talk to him. I clearly remember expecting to be struck by lightening for daring to be there. Now it's all so different and I love the feeling I get being allowed up there as an EM (even as just a plain old volunteer worker).  The first time Monsignor Chris handed me the ciborium to replace in the Tabernacle after Communion I was almost in shock. I don't know how he read the look in my eyes but his clearly said,"Of course it's okay. Jesus LOVES YOU!"

If all it comes down to is a matter of respect for the priests a rail really isn't going to make a whole lot of difference from what I've experienced. Those who reverence our priests will do so in whatever situation they find themselves, even the casual social situation (which I've been privleged to be part of many times), and when they don't (and I've heard quite a few of those) a rail isn't going to change their attitude. Growing up in the 60's it was almost as if they were expected to be kept apart, unapproachable. That's probably where I got a lot of the erroneous notion that God Himself was off limits, unapproacable, too important to bother Himself with me. I've done a lot of appologizing to Him for that attitude. That's why now I love being

In His arms,
Estelle
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Lord, I want to do only Your Holy Will.
Please increase my trust in You.
Let my words and deeds be only a reflection of You.
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The Coming Home Network International Forums  |  EXPLORING CATHOLIC CHRISTIANITY [Inquiring Dialogue]  |  The Mass, Liturgy, Liturgical Calendar, and Sacramentals (Moderators: Rob, Dave Armstrong, Jim Anderson)  |  Topic: Kneeling at the Altar Rail to Receive the Eucharist « previous next »
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