stations of the cross

[Dave Armstrong]

If I think Jesus WANTS me to suffer through sickness and disease, why would I seek a doctor, healing or relief?

That was the case with Paul's thorn: it was clearly God's will. Paul asked God to take it away and He said no and "my grace is sufficient for you." Then Paul said he was happy to accept it.

God is working in and through a fallen world. One day all pain and suffering will be gone, but that day has not come yet. In the meantime, it is not God's will to always heal. I dealt with some of this in a recent thread, drawing from a paper of mine I wrote mostly way back in 1982 when I was attending the Assemblies of God:

Biblical Refutation of "Hyperfaith" / "Name-it-Claim it" Teaching: Is it Always God's Will to Heal in Every Instance?

[David W. Emery]

That was the case with Paul's thorn: it was clearly God's will. Paul asked God to take it away and He said no and "my grace is sufficient for you." Then Paul said he was happy to accept it.

Note here, kingsvine, Paul’s acceptance of God’s will. This suffering clearly worked for Paul’s salvation, not against it; otherwise, to what effect are God’s words to him: “My grace is sufficient for you”? This is another proof of my thesis: that God’s vision is clearer than our own. He may mandate suffering, even if we do not want it, because he knows that this will better serve our salvation and eternal happiness. I know that this has been true in my own case. In this sense, no suffering is “needless.”

Why do we want one thing while God prefers to give us another? Because we are not conformed to his will. Job was a righteous man, but he was not perfect. He had, therefore, to suffer in order to learn that God’s will must be accepted even in suffering. And in the end, he was given the blessings of the perfect.

David

[Howard the Pilgrim]

"The everlasting God has in His wisdom forseen from eternity the cross that He now presents to you as a gift from His inmost Heart. This cross He now sends you, He has considered with His all-knowing eyes, understood with His Divine mind, tested with His wise justice, warmed with loving arms and weighed with His own hands to see that it be not one inch too large and not one ounce too heavy for you. He has blessed it with His holy Name, annointed it with His grace, perfumed it with His consolation, taken one last glance at you and your courage, and then sent it to you from heaven, a special greeting from God to you, an alms of the all-merciful love of God."
-- St. Francis de Sales

[Howard the Pilgrim]

Matt 26:39
He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will."

In regard to prayer for healing, seeing doctors, etc.

[kingsvine]

I quickly read through the posts, so this is just my first impression....while there is truth to all that you have all posted, there is also balance.  There IS healing, there IS restoration.  If you are always promoting the suffering, how do you know when to seek the healing or the deliverance?  I am or should I say WAS Word of Faith, and yes, I recognize hyper-faith, but I've also seen so many people healed and set free.  Where is the balance between seeking healing and just capitulating?  Again, this is a topic and a subject that I am truly trying to understand.

[Howard the Pilgrim]

Hi Kingsvine,

The balance is that you always honestly ask for what you want to happen (healing) with expectancy knowing that God is perfectly capable of performing the miraculous healing.  He know what is in our hearts.  I mean He created the far-flung galaxies so if He wills something to happen, it will.  But at the same time God is more interested in our eternal salvation and if the suffering is necessary to advance that cause, guess which He will choose?

Secondly God is also the ultimate multitasker so He also working in other peoples' lives through our trials.  God showed me this mightily when our oldest son was at death's door for 2 months needing a liver transplant.  He worked mightily in the lives of many people who came in contact with us.  So He has these other objectives that He is striving towards as well.  So he may allow our suffering to go on for awhile longer.

From 1 Peter 5:

6 So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
7 Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you.
8 Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.
9 Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.
10 The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.
11 To him be dominion forever. Amen.

[David W. Emery]

While there is truth to all that you have all posted, there is also balance. There IS healing, there IS restoration.

Several of us have agreed with you in this point, kingsvine. We have acknowledged that the Catholic Church accepts both sides, not just one side. If some have insisted that suffering is of equal validity, it is because you started out insisting that healing was the only part that made sense. I see your thinking now becoming as balanced as our own.

David

[Howard the Pilgrim]

One more thing about suffering that the Catholic Church teaches and which is one of the reasons I became a Catholic is that we can offer up our sufferings to Jesus and unite them with His.  That gives my sufferings additional purpose which helps me to hang on and allow God to do His redemptive work in me and in others through them.  Dave and David can probably shed more light on this aspect.

I am just so thankful to God for the Catholic Church, for bringing me home.  I feel like my entire humanity (intellectual, spiritual and physical), all that I am is accepted and ministered to in the Church.  The Church has made the gospel real to me.  It is like waking up and finding out that what I have dreamed about and hoped for have come true (scandals, heresies, trials within and without not withstanding).

Hallelujah!

[Talithacumi]

The balance is that you always honestly ask for what you want to happen (healing) with expectancy knowing that God is perfectly capable of performing the miraculous healing.

Howard's quote above comes very close to describing my understanding of the word "Hope." I once was walking on the hill behind my house, as I liked to do sometimes, meditating and praying. During that particular walk I felt a closeness to the Blessed Mother and I was having a sort of "heart to heart" with her. I felt that she was telling me that hope didn't mean that I would get everything I asked for, but that it meant that if I trusted in God, asking Him for what I need, then God would provide in His time and according to His will. We must trust in Him like we would trust in our own dad. We must trust that even when we are hurting, God has our best interests at heart. If we are sick, sometimes we need a shot in the arm to help us get better. When our father or mother takes us to the doctor and allows that doctor to give us a shot, we need to trust that it can work out for our good. It hurts. It causes suffering initially, but we must hope and trust in our Father that He knows it will somehow make us better eventually, though we don't understand how the shot works. We must just trust that it does.

I once heard a great quote from a TV show - "Touched by an Angel." Della Reese played a sort of head angel and one time she told a person who didn't understand why their prayer for a sufferer had not been answered, "God isn't some vending machine where you put in a prayer and pull out a prize." Great line.   No, rather, He's a Father who loves His children, and sometimes loving His children means having to let us suffer in some ways for our own education and edification; not because He wants to hurt us, but because He wants us to grow. I try to think of suffering as "growing pains." In the end, we will turn out better for it if we just trust Him through our trials.

As for "always promoting the suffering," I think it's more like... sometimes when Catholics hear people of other faiths telling the Good News, it seems like they tend to gloss over the part about suffering. Picture it like... if you're standing there with a friend and listening to them tell a story and they forget a vital part of it, you have to jump in and fill in the missing part so that the person being told will get the full story. So it's not that we're "promoting" suffering, it's more like... "Hey, don't forget the part about the suffering! That's an important part of the story."

JMJ
- Cheri

[Howard the Pilgrim]

promoting[/i] the suffering," I think it's more like... sometimes when Catholics hear people of other faiths telling the Good News, it seems like they tend to gloss over the part about suffering. Picture it like... if you're standing there with a friend and listening to them tell a story and they forget a vital part of it, you have to jump in and fill in the missing part so that the person being told will get the full story. So it's not that we're "promoting" suffering, it's more like... "Hey, don't forget the part about the suffering! That's an important part of the story."

JMJ
- Cheri
[/color]

Great analogy, Cheri.

[Dave Armstrong]

Speaking for myself (and the Catholic Church is not opposed to this in any way), I firmly believe in healing. I believe I was healed, myself, of very serious depression in 1978, and that my wife was healed (severe symptoms of scoliosis). I've been to healing masses. I've prayed for healing countless times. As a Protestant I participated in prayer lines where we prayed for healing. I have defended the ongoing presence of all the gifts, including healing, over against Protestants (often Calvinists) who deny that healing occurs today.

The Catholic Church believes in miracles. Every Mass has a miracle take place: transubstantiation. We do have the proper balance: God heals; He doesn't always heal, for various reasons. We don't commit the errors of either saying that He doesn't heal, or that He always does. And that is what is seen in the Bible.

[kingsvine]

Have just finished re-reading all these posts.  Thank you all for your input.  I have seen so many people healed.  And I have been healed. And I have seen people that have not been healed.  I have seen miraculous provision, and I have seen people pray and still go through great hardship.  Truthfully, this has always puzzled me.  I can "see" what you are saying.  Somtimes it is harder to "unlearn" and then "relearn" than to learn in the first place.

[Intercessor]

. . . I have seen so many people healed.  And I have been healed. And I have seen people that have not been healed.  I have seen miraculous provision, and I have seen people pray and still go through great hardship.  Truthfully, this has always puzzled me.  I can "see" what you are saying.  Somtimes it is harder to "unlearn" and then "relearn" than to learn in the first place.

Kingsvine, that is true, and our faith is full of mysteries.

In moving from a Protestant mindset to a Catholic mindset, there must be a shift

from thinking that healing in this life is always the best possible outcome
to thinking that God's decision, God's choice for us, is always the best possible outcome.

We move toward union with God as we desire His will (whatever it is or is not) more than we desire anything else.

Grace and peace,
Becky

[Intercessor]

Here's another thread that may be helpful:

Click Insights on Suffering


Becky

[kingsvine]

Speaking for myself (and the Catholic Church is not opposed to this in any way), I firmly believe in healing. I believe I was healed, myself, of very serious depression in 1978, and that my wife was healed (severe symptoms of scoliosis). I've been to healing masses. I've prayed for healing countless times. As a Protestant I participated in prayer lines where we prayed for healing. I have defended the ongoing presence of all the gifts, including healing, over against Protestants (often Calvinists) who deny that healing occurs today.

The Catholic Church believes in miracles. Every Mass has a miracle take place: transubstantiation. We do have the proper balance: God heals; He doesn't always heal, for various reasons. We don't commit the errors of either saying that He doesn't heal, or that He always does. And that is what is seen in the Bible.

I really appreciate that you shared that