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dblake22
Member
| Joined: | Mon Aug 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sacramento, California USA |
| Posts: | 9 |
| First Name: | Dan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left at age 23, IFCA, reformed baptist |
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 03:36 am |
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A dear soul wrote me privately asking,I noticed from your profile that you were once a Catholic, but are now a
Reformed Baptist. I attended a Reformed Baptist church for over ten
years. What caused you to leave the Catholic Church and become a
Reformed Baptist? Are you considering reverting back to the C.C.?
I replied privately and then thought to make it public.
God bless.
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It is not that I attend a reformed Baptist church (there isn't any
where I live), nor is it the only church I would find satisfying. I put
that in my faith history because in a couple of words, it describes
where I am. I am solidly reformed in my soteriology (all five points),
and I believe a credo baptism is best, but I can accept the paedobaptism
as taught in the Presbyterian church. I could name several
denominations that I would willingly join. None, save the one I attend,
are in my immediate area. Sadly, the Catholic Church is not one of
them.
I left the church 31 years ago. I was 23 and had had a conversion
experience that opened my eyes to the reality of the sacrifice of Christ
for the forgiveness of my sins. I know that sounds absurd to someone
who sees it from inside the CC, but I was there for 23 years and never
saw it nor heard it. The conclusion I drew was that the CC was a false
church because they must not know that, else, why didn't anyone tell me?
I wasn't belligerent, but I did challenge Catholics to defend their
faith--none could. :-(
Over the years I mellowed to the point that I could accept that there
were believers in the church, but 'twas by God's grace with little or no
help from the church.
Then about five years ago I saw a bumper sticker that introduced me to
Catholic radio and, hence, EWTN. Catholic radio! Never heard of such a
thing. Imagine that: there actually is a teaching ministry in the
church. Sorry, but that is how shocked I was. I very much enjoy
Immaculate Heart Radio; it is about all I listen to.
Revert? Honestly it is tempting. I love the high church liturgy. If I
knew then what I know now about the church, I would have never left, and
I would be a champion for Rome. But such is not to be; my journey to
the celestial city does not pass through Rome, however pleased I am to
call many of its citizens friends.
Grace be to you all and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus
Christ.
Dan
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 710 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 12:49 pm |
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| What you said about not hearing the salvation message with in the Catholic church has a point- I didn't hear that message in my Anglican church while I was growing up- I have friends who aren't hearing it in their Methodist Church ( judging by a conversation we had refgarding why each of us went to church) . I think that there are many of us who don't hear the message until a point when we are ready-then we will hears no matter where we go to church.
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Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 10:39 am |
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kimdyuma wrote: What you said about not hearing the salvation message with in the Catholic church has a point- I didn't hear that message in my Anglican church while I was growing up- My husband didn't hear the message of salvation in the high Episcopal church in which he was raised. He always says that it was just religion to him. And when he wasn't in church, he really didn't care about what was pleasing to Christ. Then, at the age of 20, he became an authentic Christian, by being "saved." He knew the committment he was making to Christ by accepting His sacrifice on the cross for his sins. He knew that there was a risk, a cost, for being a Christian. One would most likely lose friends and family.I have friends who aren't hearing it in their Methodist Church ( judging by a conversation we had refgarding why each of us went to church) . I think that there are many of us who don't hear the message until a point when we are ready-then we will hears no matter where we go to church.
Kim,
Regarding your last point, I think there are many facets to this. Or perhaps I should say, various ways of looking at this. Jesus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen." He also said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you." So finally, our ears are opened when God finally dispenses His grace toward us. When He calls us. Now, not all who are called immediately respond. Some respond later on. And some respond but turn away when the trials of being a Christian become too much for them to bear. So, God does know when we are "ready" to hear, and He, in His mercy, opens our hearts to hear. Still, we can reject Him, because we have that choice. I think there is a limit to irresistable grace. (Calvinist doctrine) We were not made to be robots, else why did God give us free will? Ok, now that takes care of the "ready" part.
You said "many of us who don't hear the message until we are ready." As you can see, I highlighted "who don't hear the message" in red. Why? Because there are, in fact, many who don't hear the message in church. Because the message of the gospel hasn't been preached to them. Rather it is a social gospel, or a feel good gospel, or no gospel at all. Many sit under blind guides, false shepherds, wolves in sheep's clothing. And these false teachers and misrepresentatives of the Christian faith are in every church, even the Catholic Church. St. Paul said "how are they to hear without a preacher?" Now in Israel's case, they heard as Paul says in Rom 10:18, but he calls them a disobedient and contrary people. (Rom 10:21) Yet, of the gentiles God says, "I have been found by those who did not seek me." (vs.20)
I can truly believe Dan when he says he didn't hear the true gospel message in the Catholic Church. Francis Beckwith (sp?) also has made mention of this. Instead, he saw priests and nuns trying to be "hip" and with it. Many of the Catholics I have known who left the C.C., say the exact same thing. They never heard the gospel message. Were they goofing off? Were they disinterested? Were they disobedient? Perhaps some were. But the sad truth is that many were not instructed in the Catholic faith. And many were taught erroneously about their Catholic faith. And many were given a watered down version of Catholicism, with some mamby, pamby ecumenical delivery. Thus many cradle Catholics of the 60's till the present, for the most part, were poorly catechized. I know, because I would evangelize Catholics often and discovered not only did they not know the Bible, but they did not know their own Catholic faith.
Many would say this is the result of Vatican II, or rather, the misapplication of it. Some would say that it is the result of modernism having a foothold within the Catholic Church and the Christian churches in general. Personally, I think it is both of these.
There are many Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, who didn't ever see the gospel message lived out at home. So, they went to church and that was the extent of their Christianity. Again, I will quote Nitche. "I would be a Christian if I ever met one." There were churches and so called Christians all over Germany during Nitche's lifetime. But how many were walking the talk? How many were living their faith?
On the other side of the coin, there are those who hear the gospel message, and see it lived out authentically within their church and at home. Yet, they choose to rebel later on in life. Or perhaps the seed of faith never took root. The price is often too high to remain as a Christian. They find that to crucify the flesh, with its passions and desires, seems too difficult. So they give up.
There is really not one simplistic answer to this topic. Yet, I think I have scratched the surface, somewhat.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1212 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 03:03 pm |
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| Regardless what church you're sitting in, a conversion of heart, that point when you realize that Christ did die on that cross for you, personally, can take place. But it doesn't necessarily take place at the same time for everyone. We are not all listening with the same heart, with the same ears. A protestant pastor might preach a sermon that gives that grace to me but not you. A priest may preach a homily or administer a sacrament or pray a prayer that hits home to you but not me. All of that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit working with a person, and that person's ability and willingness at that time, IMO. I have had several heart-changing experiences in my life, but the most dramatic one was when I had given up on attending church altogether. I had begun watching sermons on T.V. I never gave up on the idea of God or even Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but I had given up on church because it (baptist) had become dry and a deadend of sorts to me. But I heard a baptist preacher one Sunday morning who made me realize the Lord had chosen me to be His own, not that I had chosen Him. I don't know what the exact combination of words was, but it was as if the finger of God reached down and touched me on the head. I knew I had to get back to church but that I couldn't return to the protestant beliefs and ways of worship. I found my way to the catholic church, and a whole new world, literally, of worshipping and serving and living for the Christ who founded this church. Having said all that, I realize the catholic church has a fundamental lack of teaching her people. There is religious education for children, a few scattered Bible studies here and there for adults, and RCIA for those inquiring into the faith. But that is woefully inadequate compared to the Sunday School classes, Discipleship Sunday evening classes, and Wednesday evening activities in the protestant churches. For protestants, church teaching is lifelong learning. Nearly everyone attends at least a Sunday School class in addition to the regular service. I am just being honest here, and not meaning to be unnecessarily critical, because I am totally in love with the catholic church. And please don't someone say "Well do something about it" because you and I both know that's not how it works in the catholic church. Changes come from the top down, slowly, very slowly, not from the bottom up. But I can understand why many cradle catholics do not know their faith. It's sad, but I have met so many who say they were confirmed at an early age, attended catholic school, and then left. They never really knew what they had.
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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 146 |
| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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Half of the my parents friends are "fallen away Catholics," cradle Catholics who, as adults, have entered protestant church saying that they "never heard the gospel" in the Catholic Church. This is the root of much of my parents' objection to Catholicism.
And honestly, this really really grieves me. Why does it have to be like that? If they knew what the Catholic Church taught, they WOULD know the gospel! How can Catholics sit through the liturgy of the Eucharist and NOT hear the gospel - it is the gospel! I don't, don't understand it, but then, maybe I take for granted knowing the gospel. After all, I practically took in the simplicity of the gospel with my mother's milk.
My boyfriend said it in an interesting way. He said that my protestant upbringing gave me the framework, the foundation, for my faith - it gave me the bare essentials. Now, my Catholic faith is giving me such wonderful things upon that foundation, is taking a plain wooden cross and covering it with gold, jewels, and flowers - such beauty! Perhaps, then, when you have all the gold and flowers there, you can look at it without seeing the cross, at least until someone points it out to you?
To be honest, it does bother me how many Catholics don't understand their faith. I do, though, have several things that help me out when thinking on this. First, I firmly believe that Catholic teaching is right. Second, I have TONS of wonderful Catholic friend who completely understand their faith and are in love with it. Third, the 70s and the 80s were hard times for the Church, but things are turning around now, so while many of my parents' friends left the Church during those decades, things are improving today, and I can be part of that. You know, the thing is, the Catholic Church isn't without its flaws, but when you're in love with someone, you tolerate his (or her) flaws, and it's the same way with this.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1212 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 04:14 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: My boyfriend said it in an interesting way. He said that my protestant upbringing gave me the framework, the foundation, for my faith - it gave me the bare essentials. Now, my Catholic faith is giving me such wonderful things upon that foundation, is taking a plain wooden cross and covering it with gold, jewels, and flowers - such beauty! Perhaps, then, when you have all the gold and flowers there, you can look at it without seeing the cross, at least until someone points it out to you?
That's an interesting observation. I think he's on to something there!
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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 146 |
| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 04:54 pm |
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A question for Dan, though.
You say you attended a Catholic church for 23 years without hearing the gospel. My question is, how?
Every time I go to mass I hear the gospel. My parish fairly breathes the gospel. How can you miss the gospel in the liturgy of the Eucharist? Christ died for our sins, paid for our sins, so that we can go to heaven - it's stated so plainly, at least to my ears.
I'm not doubting what you said about not hearing the gospel there. I'm just wondering how that is - how something I find so obvious in my parish could be completely missed. Once again, I understand that I already had the gospel when I began attending mass, so I can't see it through different eyes.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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faithfl1
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 06:17 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: "fallen away Catholics," cradle Catholics who, as adults, have entered protestant church saying that they "never heard the gospel" in the Catholic Church. This is the root of much of my parents' objection to Catholicism.
And honestly, this really really grieves me. Why does it have to be like that? If they knew what the Catholic Church taught, they WOULD know the gospel! How can Catholics sit through the liturgy of the Eucharist and NOT hear the gospel - it is the gospel! I don't, don't understand it, but then, maybe I take for granted knowing the gospel. After all, I practically took in the simplicity of the gospel with my mother's milk.
My boyfriend said it in an interesting way. He said that my protestant upbringing gave me the framework, the foundation, for my faith - it gave me the bare essentials. Now, my Catholic faith is giving me such wonderful things upon that foundation, is taking a plain wooden cross and covering it with gold, jewels, and flowers - such beauty! Perhaps, then, when you have all the gold and flowers there, you can look at it without seeing the cross, at least until someone points it out to you?
To be honest, it does bother me how many Catholics don't understand their faith. I do, though, have several things that help me out when thinking on this. First, I firmly believe that Catholic teaching is right. Second, I have TONS of wonderful Catholic friend who completely understand their faith and are in love with it. Third, the 70s and the 80s were hard times for the Church, but things are turning around now, so while many of my parents' friends left the Church during those decades, things are improving today, and I can be part of that. You know, the thing is, the Catholic Church isn't without its flaws, but when you're in love with someone, you tolerate his (or her) flaws, and it's the same way with this.
Racaela, Amen!! Cradle Catholics were taught all about Jesus, but they missed something. Maybe going to all those classes and Masses, they just followed the motions and didn't really grasp the real meaning behind the teachings. My husband is a cradle Catholic and he doesn't get the whole idea of the Gospel (even though he hears the Priest reading the words right out of the Gospel) I pray that my husband will learn about Jesus and see how special it is to belong to the One True Church of Jesus Christ. And that everything that is spoken in Mass is from the Bible. It sounds silly for me to want to explain to him and other's that everything that Catholic's preach is out of the Bible, but a lot of people don't think this is true. As you know. Anyway, it is a pleasure to read your posts (I was reading about your journey)you are an awesome girl and stay strong! You are on the right path. I was brought up (non-participating) protestant, became a born-again Christian and finally converted to Catholicism. Praise God! I was never fully satisfied until I was brought home. Jesus led me to the Catholic Church about 20 years ago and I'm still learning and getting excited all over again. I did try out a few different churches after I converted, but nothing ever compared to the Catholic Church, which we know is the only True Holy Church of Jesus Christ. God Bless! Sharon
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Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 146 |
| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 07:43 pm |
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Sharon, you said "My husband is a cradle Catholic and he doesn't get the whole idea of the Gospel." What is "the whole idea of the gospel"? What I mean is, what do people who grew up in the Catholic Church and say they never heard the "gospel" mean by that? Surely they learned that Christ died for thier sins - that is restated in every mass, during the liturgy of the Eucharist. What is it that they didn't get?
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1212 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 08:27 pm |
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| I'm not a cradle catholic, but I think they are like me and some protestants who hear it but it's like hearing about a figure in history. It sounds great, but it's like a story. Only later did it become truly personal to me.
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon Sep 24th, 2007 11:02 pm |
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What I think we're talking about here is a disconnect. Faith in Christ is something that is living and active. It breathes life into the person who possesses it. Faith is like a seed which should grow. "The earth brings forth of itself, it knows not how." We should be living our Christian faith in such a way that it is natural, a part of us every day, every living moment.
From all the testimonies I've heard of cradle Catholics that turned away from the C.C., they speak of their Catholic upbringing as compartamentalized. Sunday, we woke up and went to mass. We didn't question why. We didn't try to get out of it. We went to CCD classes because our parents sent us. We were taught the basics. We received First Holy Communion. Later on we were confirmed. But in between these events, how did our Catholic faith come into play? Not much, really. Didn't eat meat on Friday, but didn't know why really. Just another rule. Went to confession. Why? Often, we were made to go. Not something we really wanted to do. For the rest of the week, we lived just like any other Joe Smoe in the neighborhood. Never had family prayer time, except perhaps to say a quick "grace" before the meal. Never had family Bible study time. Didn't really even know much of what was in the Bible and certainly weren't taught how to defend our Catholic faith from the Bible.
As Marcus Grodi said in the Journey Home episode this evening with Francis Beckwith, we send our kids to CCD, they go through First Communion, Confirmation, but we don't as Catholics, "close the sale." Beckwith made a good point that Protestants see the necessity (at least the serious Evangelical ones) of defending their faith. Catholics have the attitude, why should I defend it? The Church says so, isn't that enough. Obviously not. He said that Catholic youth need to be taught beyond the Catechism. The Church needs to be ready to answer the tough questions such as "How can I know there is a God?" I would say that Catholics need to be able to answer why it is necessary and important to live out one's Christian faith within the context/confines of the Catholic Church.
Catechesis isn't just some formula: baptize 'em, go to CCD, take Holy Communion, and Confirm 'em. Then lickity split, they'll be good Catholics the rest of their lives.
Yes, I really do believe that there has been a real disconnect between the actual living, breathing faith that resides in Christ being taught and lived as opposed to a religion consisting of rules of the Church. Can the living, resurrected Christ be found within Catholicism, not just in the Eucharist, but in the witness of holy, godly living visible among the church going Catholics? The Church is a living, breathing organism, not just stained glass windows, or a beautiful structure. As one of the callers asked on the Journey Home this evening, "Why is it that Catholics are so unfriendly?" Perhaps unfriendly wasn't the exact word but something like it. She said that Catholics can't seem to wait to dash out of the church and then there is a mad dash to the parking lot. She mentioned that she misses the comradery and fellowship she had in her Protestant church. This kind of behavior from my experience within Evangelicalism was considered rude. It was considered wrong. Fellowship was a needful and necessary outgrowth of what we had just experienced at church. How much more should this be the case with Catholics who are taught that the Eucharist is the "source and summit of their faith?" How can one take in Christ and then just flippantly, cavalierly leave church and whatever.
Folks this is a common complaint. It is my complaint. What's with that? All the excuses have not been satisfactory. Father Corapi asked, "How can you come to mass and ignore your brother or sister who is hurting and standing right next to you?"
What is this disconnect between faith and living it out authentically? I just don't understand this about the Catholic culture. Can anyone help me out here? Again, in all of my explanations above, this is just an analysis, a objective viewpoint from one who is standing from outside looking in. And I keep knocking on the door, waiting to see if there is LIFE. If there is a Jesus with skin on. If there is a LIVING BODY that realizes what the Eucharist truly is, and wants to go out and live that faith because it is the truth.
Ok, I'm off my soap box for now. :?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
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| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 12:21 am |
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I love you Darlene, soapbox and all. You're honest, and real, and looking.
The weird thing is, even as my parents knew lots of fallen away Catholics who said they'd never learned the gospel in the Catholic Church, that isn't at all the experience I've had with Catholics.
The Catholics I've met here at school are so real - they understand their faith, love it, and live it, both those I know here in the dorms and those at St Francis. If it hadn't been for my friend Kasey, or the Coleman family, I would never have begun my journey to Rome. So, there are wonderful, sold-out-for-Christ Catholics out there. And my prayer for you, Darlene, is that you'll find some of them.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Credo Catholic
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 12:45 am |
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| I love ya, Darlene! You get right to the nitty-gritty. I watched Marcus Grodi tonight also, and heard the lady ask about friendliness in the catholic church. To me it's two sides of the coin. One thing I wanted to get away from in the protestant church was the backslapping, handshaking, chitchat everywhere. But in my catholic church I could go a year I think and never be spoken to by anyone if I hadn't made friends in RCIA and volunteering in a few areas. I wish Dr. Beckwith's interview could have been continued because he had so much to say, I don't think they got started good before it was over. I never heard him say what specific obstacles he had to get past. Anyway, all these ex-catholics who are saying they never heard the gospel preached before they went to a protestant church, are referring to the protestant gospel, not the catholic gospel. As we know, the protestant gospel highlights the parts where Jesus tells His followers faith is all they need, that He is the way to salvation. Just to know Him and follow Him and His word, follow Him and you can't go wrong. The catholic gospel tells of the mysteries of His ministry, His public ministry, His appointment of Peter as the keeper of the keys and foundation of the new church, the request for Peter to feed His sheep, the request of John to behold his Mother, and more. These are not things regularly expounded upon in the protestant gospel. So yes, it's possible that the catholic and protestant groups are hearing different versions of "the gospel."
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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 01:05 am |
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Yes, Marsha, I thought that the Catholic and protestant gospels might differ some here. In the Catholic Church you will hear of Jesus dying for your sins, but you won't hear that faith alone - praying the sinners prayer and that's it - will get you to heaven. Catholics learn that they are saved by grace through Jesus, but not that all they have to do is say they believe and that's it, they've got their ticket to heaven.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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elfdream
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| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Regular Baptist , Independant Baptist, Non denom to Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 08:20 am |
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Darlene wrote:
As one of the callers asked on the Journey Home this evening, "Why is it that Catholics are so unfriendly?" Perhaps unfriendly wasn't the exact word but something like it. She said that Catholics can't seem to wait to dash out of the church and then there is a mad dash to the parking lot. She mentioned that she misses the comradery and fellowship she had in her Protestant church. This kind of behavior from my experience within Evangelicalism was considered rude. It was considered wrong. Fellowship was a needful and necessary outgrowth of what we had just experienced at church. How much more should this be the case with Catholics who are taught that the Eucharist is the "source and summit of their faith?" How can one take in Christ and then just flippantly, cavalierly leave church and whatever.
Folks this is a common complaint. It is my complaint. What's with that? All the excuses have not been satisfactory. Father Corapi asked, "How can you come to mass and ignore your brother or sister who is hurting and standing right next to you?"
Darlene
I grew up in Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism, attended a LOT of churches over the course of my life and I've found one thing to be true over and should be noted. A lot of that 'Fellowshipping' after Church in some Protestant Churches is superficial. Its for 'show'. People welcome you into a church and are extremely friendly to you. Most of the conversation is light and casual. "How are you doing?" Big smile. "I'm fine....etc" Big smile even if you don't particularly feel like smiling because you must give off the impression that you are 'happy in the Lord'.
You DO make friends. They do help out if you need it but eventually it begins to taper off. Someone who was so friendly to you in the begining walks past you without speaking to get to the next 'newer' person who just showed up. You are speaking to the Pastor about something serious and someone interrupts your conversation with something banal. If you are really seeking help either spiritually or physically many will do what they can for you at first but soon you are branded as 'needy' and brushed off. You then decide to leave the church and hardly anyone notices and its unusual that anyone would come to visit you to try to get you to come back. Your so called 'brothers and sisters' in the Lord can't be bothered to see why you aren't in church anymore. These handshaking, backslapping 'brothers and sisters in Christ' just let you go. I've seen it happen over and over...some people just left my husband's church for that very reason and these are good people in his church. They aren't callous or cruel...there just isn't a lot of 'substance' to their fellowshipping. Shaking hands and being friendly after the service is a good thing but its almost like its expected....a ritual if you please. It can be a good thing or it can be empty.
My church has coffee and donuts in the Fellowship Hall after Mass. I haven't been a Catholic long enough to see if any kind of comparison can be made between Catholic 'fellowship' and Protestant fellowship but I will certainly keep that on my radar.
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How do you expect to arrive at the end of your own journey if you take the road to another man's city? How do you expect to reach your own perfection by leading someone else's life?
Thomas Merton
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faithfl1
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 11:21 am |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: Sharon, you said "My husband is a cradle Catholic and he doesn't get the whole idea of the Gospel." What is "the whole idea of the gospel"? What I mean is, what do people who grew up in the Catholic Church and say they never heard the "gospel" mean by that? Surely they learned that Christ died for their sins - that is restated in every mass, during the liturgy of the Eucharist. What is it that they didn't get?
I didn't mean "idea", I meant the Gospel in general. He just thinks it is something that's read and talked about at Church. He doesn't realize it's straight from the Bible (I could be wrong). Some Catholics just weren't taught that, in CCD etc.. They focused on the sacraments and the Mass. Which is still based on the Bible, the word of God etc. This is Jesus' Church but they don't talk about that enough. They need to, so that everyone that grew up in the Church can see how special it is to be in the real presence of Jesus and how fulfilling it is to share his body and blood, and all the bowing, praying, kneeling, are not just mindless motions, it is all done out of respect, reverance and honor to our Lord. I'm not judging or putting down the cradle Catholics, I just think some of them are missing out on the true meaning of everything that was taught to them. I hope I am making some sense out of what I'm trying to say. It's really hard for me to explain my feelings and thoughts on this issue. God Bless! Sharon
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Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 01:41 pm |
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I have a rather different view of the process of falling away and reconversion. In the gospels, Jesus does not talk about environment and excuses. He speaks of blindness, especially regarding the leaders of the People of God. For if the teacher, bound by the depravity of sin, does not know what he teaches, how can he impart wisdom?
Matthew 15:13–14
He answered, “Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
(Cf. also Luke 6:39)
Matthew 23:16–19
Woe to you, blind guides… You blind fools!… You blind men!
Luke 4:17–21
He opened the book and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.… Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
John 9:39–41
Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.”
Notice that Jesus consistently uses the word “blind” in the sense of not understanding or a lack of penetration into the meaning of things. Also note that the apostles use the word “blind” in a similar manner. Examples:
Romans 2:17–24
…If you are sure that you are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth — you then who teach others, will you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
2 Peter 1:5–9
For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Revelation 3:16–18
Because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. You say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.
Jesus and the apostles also speak directly of understanding and comprehension, as the following references indicate:
Matthew 13:13–15; cf. Mark 4:11–12 and Luke 8:10
Mark 6:52
Mark 9:2; cf. Luke 9:45
Luke 10:21–22
Luke 24:44–48
John 3:10
John 12:16
Acts 13:27
Acts 28:25–27
1 Corinthians 2:12–14
1 Corinthians 13:2
Ephesians 3:17–19
Ephesians 4:17–20
Colossians 2:2–4
Hebrews 11:1–3
Where does blindness come from? What is its origin? Sin and evil. In Genesis 3:7 we read that Adam and Eve’s eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked.
But in truth, this eyesight was a deeper blindness, because Eve earlier had seen that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was good for food and a delight to the eyes, desirable to make one wise. So the later opening of the eyes was not a matter of better insight but the experience of the consequences of sin, which is slavery and suffering. For this reason they were driven from the garden, just as the uncomprehending Christian is driven from his place before the Lord. Or to put it another way, he is naked, so he hides himself.
If later, through grace given in a different context, he comes to grips with his condition, conversion is still possible. But it may be in a lesser environment, with much imperfection and blindness remaining in him.
As Catholic Christians, we speak much of the dark night of the soul, as if it is something bad that must be endured. Yet we barely comprehend how its darkness is really a cleansing of the eyes, a deeper wisdom. This link (free registration required for use of the website) gives us a tiny glimpse into that mystery.
Ever more forcefully, the truth seems to be impressed upon us that “the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually” (1 Corinthians 2:14 NAB). This, it seems to me, is why those who are supposedly raised as Christians fall away or discover God in a different place. It’s like not seeing the forest for the trees: they are blind.
By the same token, the cure for blindness is the divine grace which yields faith, hope and charity. This is usually given not through knowledge as such but through the very holiness of the teacher. For as we have learned from Adam, we cannot give what we do not have. If we would recover the faith and the souls we have forfeited, we must pray for our priests, bishops and other teachers of the faith. Are we doing this?
David
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paulr
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| Joined: | Mon Sep 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Maple Falls, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Paul | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifelong Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2007 03:15 pm |
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For what it’s worth, here is my take on the situation.
The crux of the matter lies in something that on the surface appears to be quite innocent and seemingly unrelated to anything having to do with religion.
This issue of failing to really learn our faith for both Protestants and Catholics lies in the fact that we, as Americans, have come to expect to be entertained.
We expect to be entertained wherever we go – at home, at the mall, at work – everywhere.
There isn’t a place or situation in our modern society in which we don’t see people plugged in to some electronic gadget or other, or taken in by some mindless distraction.
While the rest of the world suffers unrelenting turmoil, strife, starvation and war, while we stand on the brink of a nuclear holocaust, America is focused on Brittany Spears’ belly button.
Unfortunately, this expectation of being entertained also tends to carry over into our attitude toward worship.
Hence, many of us sit in Church every Sunday thinking, albeit subconsciously, “Here I am God – Do something!”
And if He doesn’t, we are disappointed.
So it begins – we complain about another boring sermon.
The music was terrible, again.
I don’t like this priest/pastor, he (or she) just doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy.
The complaints are endless, but the consequence of this type of attitude, the fruit, as it were, is a hardened heart.
Over a long period of time and unless we continually strive to be open to God’s grace, we almost invariably lose interest in church and in religion. We slowly drift away from God.
Going to church takes more and more effort, so much so that many lose heart and quit going altogether.
We have been bred to be spectators.
If our environment, Church included, fails to sufficiently entertain us, we leave in search of better and more stimulating entertainment.
In stark contrast to this, Christianity, the following of Christ the Good Shepherd, is a “doing” faith, not a spectator sport.
Unfortunately, many of the so-called mega-churches have taken this concept of spectator faith to a dangerously new level, misleading many souls in the process.
St. Irenaeus says, “To believe in God means to do His will.”
St. Paul points this out clearly when he says “I make up in my own flesh, what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the Church.”
Now, this scriptural passage is utter nonsense when considered solely within the context of non-Catholic theology.
How can anything of Christ’s be lacking? After all, Jesus is God! Christ is perfect and complete unto Himself!
Yes, He is.
So, what’s the deal?
From the Catholic perspective, the answer is quite simple.
It is Christ Himself who is able to make Christ’s suffering’s lacking – by design and intent.
Christ set salvation up in such a way that He provides a means by which we lowly mortal, sinful people can actually participate in salvation.
We are each called to emulate St. Paul and unite our sufferings, even our very selves to Christ’s own sufferings for the sake of His body, which is the Church.
In short, we are called to embrace the Cross.
But Crosses don’t sound like very much fun, especially these days.
Thus, Christianity is truly a participatory faith, not a spectator, couch potato “sit on my backside and do nothing but expect to be entertained all my life” religion.
It is for this reason that Catholicism is demanding.
Catholicism is demanding because God is demanding.
But, as we all know, when things get tough and demanding, the lukewarm and fainthearted tend to walk.
Jesus reminds us of this time and again - “Whoever wishes to come after me let him take up his cross each day and follow Me.”
“Not everyone who cries ‘lord, lord’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Heavenly Father.”
It is not many but few who will enter through the narrow gate.
One will notice that the further certain faith groups deviate from the Gospel, (for example, those who legitimize gay partnerships), the less theologically demanding they are in the exercise of their faith and, consequently, the less a person is required or expected to do as a member.
Jesus did not come into the world to entertain us.
Yet, in the context of our culture, this is exactly what we have come to expect.
It should be a red flag for each of us when we perform our daily self-examination: Do I expect to sit in church and go through life passively and be entertained or am I willing to actually be proactive and participate in my faith life? Am I truly ready, willing and able to “do something” for Jesus?
The Last Judgment scenario (Matthew 25:31) is an open book exam for every human being on earth.
God is giving us the questions well ahead of time He will inevitably be asking us –
Did you feed the hungry?
Did you give drink to the thirsty?
Did you clothe the naked?
Did you visit the sick?
Did you care for those in prison?
Notice how all of the key and critical aspects of our last judgment involve things that we have done, or failed to do. What we’ve watched or how we played doesn’t enter into the picture.
You’d better believe that works are an absolutely necessary and intrinsic part of salvation – God says so quite clearly right here.
We already know the questions that will be asked.
The issue for each of us is, “How ready am I to give Jesus some good, solid answers?”
In Matthew’s gospel, there is no mention of God giving us credit or bonus points for “pew warming.” Jesus doesn’t concern Himself with how many video games we’ve played or how many theme parks we’ve attended.
It is in striving to satisfy God by having good, positive and substantive responses to His questions that will be the means by which we will be well prepared for that day.
We have forgotten that to follow Christ means precisely to do the hard, difficult and uncomfortable things - things we would rather not do.
The devil continues to work hard to make America and everyone in it a collective bunch of couch potatoes. There is a malevolent, evil purpose and intent at work here.
He does so because he knows that if we are so constantly focused on being entertained, we won’t make the time in our daily lives or put forth the effort to be up and about doing good things for others as God would have us do.
The devil leads and entices us to waste our time on ente | | |
