 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 11:37 am |
|
My topic title pretty much explains an age-old beef I've had with Protestants who find it unreasonable for Cathoics to show any hesitation in joining their local church or denomination.
Why can't they just be satisfied with an occasional attendance by the Catholic partner of his or her Protestant church's services?
Perhaps the answer can be found by recognizing the basic outlook(s) Catholics and Protestants have towards church/denominational membership.
Catholics belong to The Church founded directly by no less than Jesus Christ. (Even most Protestants recognize this historical fact, no matter how far the Catholic Church drifted off the farm following Constantine's legalization of Christianity.) Catholics don't belong to a mere denomination. Protestants do. Some even belong to local sects. They may holler at these words, but their record speaks volumes for itself.
Because Prostantism stresses the individualistic relationship betwen man and God more than Catholicism, should it surprise anyone that so many denominations, sub-denominations, conventions, ecumenical alliances and non-denominational churches have sprouted following this or that spat over the Bible or personality feuds?
But they love to "do fellowship," and have a great difficulty understanding why any Catholic (or more liturgical Protestant) would be more interested in just being fed the Eucharist, transubstantiated or constansubstatiated by his or her shepherd, sans some long sermon given by this or that "dynamic" pastor (who may or not be validly ordained.)
What I cannot understand is a Protestant who, having a fairly good comprehension of the Catholic Eucharistic sacrament, is surprised when one of us demonstrates the slightest reluctance to giving it up: after all, we're all Christians, right? What difference does the nature of a single sacrament make? Besides, we have it once a month and Jesus died once for all time, so why bother having more sacrifices?
As a Catholic, I forever find myself perplexed by people who feel we're unreasonable for sticking to our guns, as opposed to simply joining another denomination that stresses "personal relationships" with Jesus and a "Bible Church atmosphere" over a musty old liturgical service.
Since the Catholics formed the Bible, the full and complete Bible, why would it seem unreasonable to want to join a "bible church"?
What's so wrong with being so "unreasonable"?
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 01:25 pm |
|
Hello Steve,
Currently, I am a Protestant and have not yet made that cross over the Tiber. I am going to think a bit on some of your comments and get back to you. One question I have for you is, have you ever been a Protestant Christian?
If you haven't read my post on "Anti-Catholic Influences." For me, and many others that I know, it was and is former Catholics turned Evangelicals that speak out most against the Catholic Church.
God Bless You,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 03:01 pm |
|
Darlene, I have indeed been a "Prod" but a couple of years ago I renewed my Baptismal vows with a priest in the Newman Center across the stre et from my family's First Baptist Church (Amherst, MA).
I'm technically a "member" because FBC recently instituted a new law allowing "dual citizenship" or more correctly, dual membership, to accomodate the fluid population here in the collegetown area of Amherst. (UMass/Amherst is FBCs immediate "neighbor.")
People in the church know me as the resident papistbapist or crypto papist, but I don't care. If I can be of service to the Lord by providing a friendly apostolate of sound ecumenical "information sharing" (to borrow the latest lingo) all the merrier.
But, there have been times I yearned for a liturgical service and for while during a relatively recent bout with deep d epres sion thought about returning to our family's former Episcopal parish. It just proved too darn liberal and I returned. Nice people, a much better service, but they've let their theological values fall straight through the floorboards of hell.
But, I'm back: Papist and all. The clergy has also been quite supportive and understanding. The Baptist church has also helped my family out during some pretty rough moments so I've got to be very considerate and sensitive to that fact.
However, since you mentioned those ever-so Enthusiastic Evangelicals (i.e. very lapsed small-c catholics) -- we have our share of them, and refugees from other liturgical Protestant denominations. Now, how one of them could recently tell me with a straight face that he liked the more "contemporary" service format because it didn't have those "vain repetitious prayers" -- well, that was beyond me. After all, how many times have I heard the "contemporary" Praise and Worship team bray on and on and on and on and on the same endings to each song. Unfortunately, it's a national trend. Three notes, four lines and a fine way to waste Sunday mornings.
My boss, a dear friend and building deacon, tells me the contemporary stuff came over from the Catholics, the kumbaya krap. Perhaps it did, and if so, well -- we do have a lot of penance ahead. In fairness to FBC, which is much more evangelical than "baptist," even it is a member of the very liberal American Baptist Convention.
As for the lapsed catholics, at first they grated on me with their ever present "before I became a Christian line." Nowadays I just ask them what they were reading or daydreaming about while the Gospel was being read and spoken about during the homily. The "tilt" light always comes on for those folks when I pull that out. Surely, the Mass has its tedious moments and priests who like to ham it up or prolong their prayers ev er so slowwly, or sing every verse for "effect" have done wonders for filling up evangelical pews.
I'll say this: it was very amusing to see all the long faces at the Newman Center when Cardinal Ratzinger became their next boss; especially considering the opposite response his election as Pope was accepted at First Baptist with joy! As you can well imagine, the Newman Center is Newman-ite in name only. Wonderful parish, liberal and all. But considering it's "parish," the ever so secular UMass/Amherst, the fact that its priests haven't completely joined the "Vatican III" crowd and they allowed someone to distribute "We love our German Shepherd" bumperstickers (of which I have several!) -- all's well.
While everyone has their war stories and howlers about the differences between Protestants and Catholics, I am pleased to see that even though our cultures clash like a cocktail party half filled with people wearing leisure suits from the 70s and guys like myself preferring Brooks Bros pin stripes, our theological differences are starting to fade somewhat and we're coming much closer. Rest assured, it'll be Rome that stands firmest in the long haul.
Speaking of haul, I've got to get haulling. Nice corresponding with you and keep the faith, and a strong dosage of humor!
spb
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 17th, 2006 01:32 pm |
|
Steven,
You crack me up!! BTW, isn't Massachusetts the bastion of liberal, left-wing Democrats? And are not many of those LLWD's (abbreviation) supposedly Catholic? How do they reconcile their belief in abortion, homosexual marriage, womens' rights, premarital sex, on and on, with the Catholic faith? Or are they attempting to bring about change in the Catholic Church? Or are they fallen away Catholics who don't really attend Mass, take the Lord's Supper or go to Confession?
I'm just curious. I can't figure out how people can call themselves "Christians" and disavow everything that Jesus and His Church stands for.
Darlene
P.S.: Are many of these liberal Catholics a product of the sixties? That would explain everything. The sixties, excluding the Civil Rights Movement, were virtually a failure and left an immoral, Godless legacy to our progeny.
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 17th, 2006 02:39 pm |
|
Steven Barrett wrote: But, there have been times I yearned for a liturgical service and for while during a relatively recent bout with deep d epres sion thought about returning to our family's former Episcopal parish. It just proved too darn liberal and I returned. Nice people, a much better service, but they've let their theological values fall straight through the floorboards of hell.
Steven, since you mentioned the Episcopal church, have you ever heard of "Anglican Use"?
Anglican use is a special provision whereby former Anglican/Episcopal converts to the Catholic faith are allowed to use the majority of the Book of Common Prayer in a special transitional liturgy. I mention this because there is an Anglican Use parish in Boston called St. Athanasius. Like Eastern Catholic parishes, Anglican Use parishes are fully Catholic and fully in union with Rome, and any Catholic may worship and receive sacraments there.
You can learn more about Anglican Use at their web site, and more about the Pastoral Provision which allows Anglican/Episcopal priests to become Catholic priests here.
If you are interested but want more information first, Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church offers a DVD of their Holy Mass according to the Book of Divine Worship and the Book of Divine Worship itself, which is a Catholic adaptation of the Book of Common Prayer.
Unfortunately, there is no Anglican Use or Eastern Catholic liturgy available in my area, but just knowing about these alternate Churches, rites, and liturgies highlights the glorious universality of the Catholic faith. In Massachussets you are blessed with a rich combination of languages and liturgies including Anglican Use and Melkite Byzantine.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
dboy4882
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 03:30 pm |
|
Dear Steve,
Interesting post. You asked: "Why can't they just be satisfied with an occasional attendance by the Catholic partner of his or her Protestant church's services?"
My thoughts: Most Evangelicals, as you know, view their relationship between themselves, God and the church very differently then Catholics.
Catholics view their relationship with God as being part of their relationship with the Church and in most cases these relationships become inseperable. Thus, being Christian means being a member in this Christian community. It is tanglible expression of faith, not just an inward one.
Most Protestants view their relationship with God strictly in terms of a "personal" (ie not ecclesiastical) "relationship with Jesus." To Evangelicals, all that matters is the personal (Just me-and-Jesus) relationship. Thus, the view of the church is diminished to simply somewhere the believer feels comfortable. Practially speaking, this "ideal" church is usually where they 1. agree with what's being preached and 2. feel spiritually satisfied. This may sound great but this mindset is hyperfocused on individualism.
So why is it NOT good enough for Catholics to visit Protestant services just once or twice? Why is it so bad to be a member in the Catholic Church when so many Evangelicals say all we need is a personal relationship with Jesus. That's because they don't, they refuse, to realize that Catholics DO have such a relationship with Jesus. Instead they are happy to believe that such a relationship is incompatible with an authoritative ecclesiastical community. A church, to an Evangelical, is simply a place for all believers to gather. In short there is essential no view of community. Community is simply a bunch of individuals. This view is very American (hence why this mindset exists primarily here in the US).
I think that many Evangelicals cringe at the thought of membership in the Catholic Church because is challanages their view of community, authority and discipline. And let's face it, it all comes back to authority: Holding to Sola Scriptura gives the believer an INCREDIBLE amount of leaway to believe a whole range of different things about God. Some of those beliefs, to put it bluntly, can be more convenient than others. To be a Catholic means you must believe ideas enumerated by a visible, living, structure. A structure can dissagree with you - where the written word cannot. In this consumer based, post-modern, society, choice is king.
Sincerely,
Daniel Boyle
|
|
|
Mattheus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 28th, 2006 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 1 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 28th, 2006 03:35 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: BTW, isn't Massachusetts the bastion of liberal, left-wing Democrats? And are not many of those LLWD's (abbreviation) supposedly Catholic? How do they reconcile their belief in abortion, homosexual marriage, womens' rights, premarital sex, on and on, with the Catholic faith? Or are they attempting to bring about change in the Catholic Church? Or are they fallen away Catholics who don't really attend Mass, take the Lord's Supper or go to Confession?
To deny one article of faith, a Catholic ceases to be one, i.e., he is excommunicated latae sententiae (automatically). These LLWDs are Catholic only in name. Abortion and homosexuality are two of the four sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance. Are these LLWDs aware of this? Of course they are. Nevertheless they go on to show their "Catholicism" on Sundays by going to holy Communion. Of course we don't judge subjectively, but objectively speaking, they are commiting sacrilege.
I'm just curious. I can't figure out how people can call themselves "Christians" and disavow everything that Jesus and His Church stands for.
Darlene
P.S.: Are many of these liberal Catholics a product of the sixties? That would explain everything. The sixties, excluding the Civil Rights Movement, were virtually a failure and left an immoral, Godless legacy to our progeny.
You're not too far off in figuring how these people can go on calling themselves "Christians" because they are not.
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 11:27 am |
|
Danny Boy,
Have you ever hit the nail on the head! Wow!
If given the opportunity any day to remain "unreasonable" insofar as sticking to a faith that truly brings man closer to God than any other way possible, especially in the "personal" manifestations of our Christian Faith, I'll be joyfully as unreasonable (albeit w/o demonstrating outward signs of boorish triumphalism) as I can possibly imagine.
I'm grateful for the blessings of what my US citizenship offers; but I, you, and all of us, are pilgrims and our goal isn't to die with our red/white n' blue boots on, but with our bare feet standing on Heaven's soil when our time comes to make that final passage.
Most American Protestants, however, have been conditioned to see themselves as American Christians, (no more, no less) with all the individualism, and emphasis on local churches, etc. As Catholics, we are obliged by our Lord's example (before Pilate) to think of ourselves as His citizens first, then wherever we hail from in temporal terms. Small wonder we're often seen as the "unreasonable" neighbors on the block.
One of my biggest worries about all this talk (among some prominent consrvative christian political groups) clamoring for a so-called "Christian Nation" is the eventual "loyalty test" to follow. Despite all the reassuring closing of ranks between evangelicals and Catholics, I'm not willing to
place the security of my freedoms with persons belonging to a set of differing Christian principles concerning the role of nationalism. It's small comfort to know we belong to the largest single "denomination." We still belong to a PREDOMINATELY Protestant nation and culture. And, the Catholic who sees himself as truly loyal to his Church, as the one founded directly by God, versus a local, however, influential denomination, will always find himself in some way or another at loggerheads with his government.
As Catholics, we must face the inconvenient fact that we will never "arrive" as equals in a secularist republic run by and for a larger number of people who have bought into many of the "death culture's" fondest notions of sound public policy; abortion, infanticide, euthanasia, geronticide, economic injustice, war without end and the hangman's noose. (Many good liberal-minded, albeit deeply concerned evangelical Protestants are finding themselves drifting in our direction, thanks to the marriage of expediency between the Religious Right and the Death & Deviancy Culture.)
Obviously, this leaves us outside looking in, perhaps permanently so. The saddest irony here is that truly loyal Catholics who put their faith ahead of all nations, including their own, have been relegated to second-class status insofar as achieving the White House is concerned - - all thanks to JFK's infamous sell out to the Southern Baptists in 1960.
Just as Jefferson's "wall of separation" was an informal principle for many years, untl the Supreme Court dusted it off to justify its long string of turning down many legal claims long held by faith-based groups, Kennedy's informal appeasement to the Baptists will forever continue to bind and haunt future Catholic presidential hopefuls who want to remain both loyal Catholics and Americans.
It's not just a political sell-out. it's also both moral and cultural.
But to put a "wrap" on this already long email reply, I'm going to depart with a radical suggestion.
Why don't we Catholics and (like minded other Christians) simply start saying "to hell with a loyalty lower than what we FIRST owe to Our Lord and His Holy Church?"
If anybody asks me in the future to be "reasonable." My response will be "Hell No!"
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 11:55 am |
|
Cajunrick!
Thanks for your suggestion about the Anglican Rite Use, etc. Trouble is, up in my neck of the woods, the ever-so progressive, liberal-minded, opened-eyed, and relativistic for the sake of being relatiistic Happy Valley or "pioneer valley" of Hampshire Country, Western Mass., an Anglican Rite service is non-existent. The lokels in the off icial ECUSA up here, would alll of a sudden drop all pretenses of being liberal-minded pr o gressives and sic their lawyers and if necessary/demolition crews, out on any Anglican Rite episcopal church that dared to retain any shred of antiquity and respect for Tradition, Scripture and Reason (as this tripod was meant to be respected.)
The closest Melkite and Orthodox parishes are spread pretty far and wide. Since I don't drive anymore, my options are limited. But not at a loss, by any means since there is a good Catholic Parish founded by Polish farmers years ago just around the block. But, I agree, there's something about that old way of doing things, especially in 17th-early 18th century English. (My inner and deeply hidden Tory occassionally surfaces.)
There is a fairly mischevious (not a little devil) but sometimes "behaviorally challenged angel" on my right shoulder who never ceases to remind me to put into writing one of my fantasies.
One of these days, an Anglican-Use Rite priest and his missus will start up a "basement church," a la Rick Warren, and the project will blossom into THE Mother of All Anti-Modernist Anglican Use Rite Megachurches in the nation, right here in liberal la la land of Happy Valley -- and this House of the Lord will have the full blessings from the Vatican to all of the long-suffering Scripturally Loyal Episcopal/Anglican bishops and priests throughout the world, especially the Global South World.
Ah, but it's fun to dream, right?
S.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 01:22 pm |
|
Steven Barrett wrote: relativistic for the sake of being relatiistic Happy Valley or "pioneer valley" of Hampshire Country, Western Mass., an Anglican Rite service is non-existent. The The closest Melkite and Orthodox parishes are spread pretty far and wide. Since I don't drive anymore, my options are limited. But not at a loss, by any means
I think you misunderstood. Anglican Use is a Roman Catholic rite for traditionalist Anglicans/Episcopalian. It maintains, with the full approval of the Vatican, elements of the high church Anglican liturgy. The rite is based on the Book of Divine Worship, which is a Catholic variation of the Book of Common Prayer. It's members are full members of the Roman Catholic Church, and any Catholic may attend mass at an Anglican Use parish, go to confession, receive Eucharist, etc. In Massachusetts, the Congregation of Saint Athanasius is an Anglican Use parish. The chaplain, Rev. Richard S. Bradford, is a married, former Episcopal priest. You'll find details about the parish on the diocesan web site and on the parish web site.
The Melkite Catholic Church has an Eparchy (diocese) centered in Newton, MA. There are three parishes in Massachusetts:
Annunciation Cathedral, 7 VFW Parkway, Roslindale, MA 02131
St. Joseph, 241 Hampshire Street, Lawrence, MA 01841
Our Lady of Perpetual Help, 256 Hamilton Street, Worcester, MA 01604
The chancery can be reached at 617-323-9922. I'm sure they'd be happy to help you find the nearest parish. Melkite Catholics are not members of the Roman Catholic Church; instead, they are members of one of the other "lungs" of the Universal Catholic Church. Any Catholic may attend their Divine Liturgy (their name for our mass), go to confession, receive the Eucharist, etc. Their web site is here. You can read about other Eastern Catholics in union with Rome at the ByzCath web site.
It might be inconvenient for you to attend regularly, but an occasional visit can help us to appreciate the universality of the Catholic Church, which is much broader than the Roman rite we are accustomed to on Sunday. There are more than a score of autonomous Catholic Churches other than the Roman, and there are several rites and liturgies within those Churches. Perhaps a young person who is interested in exploring the breadth of the Catholic Church would be willing to provide transportation, or if there are others within your congregation who are former Episcopalians, maybe you could all split the cost of a van and one of them or their children could drive.
Last edited on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 01:24 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
stephanpetersgirl
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 15th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Converting to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 08:01 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: BTW, isn't Massachusetts the bastion of liberal, left-wing Democrats? And are not many of those LLWD's (abbreviation) supposedly Catholic? How do they reconcile their belief in abortion, homosexual marriage, womens' rights, premarital sex, on and on, with the Catholic faith? Or are they attempting to bring about change in the Catholic Church? Or are they fallen away Catholics who don't really attend Mass, take the Lord's Supper or go to Confession?
I'm just curious. I can't figure out how people can call themselves "Christians" and disavow everything that Jesus and His Church stands for.
I am also curious about how people can call themselves "Christians" and disavow everything that Jesus and His Church stands for, and I am a democrat! Although, I have to admit that I was an extremely conservative Republican for 18 years - I voted pro-life every time.
But I became confused when people I knew who’d been champions for the unborn baby suddenly wanted to bomb "into a parking lot" an entire nation, and torturing prisoners held without formal charges or trials was OK by them?????? Where is their Christian concern and charity? It somehow melted under the heat of party politics.
There is some kind of mental blocking that occurs when people become super aligned to one political party or another.
I want a political party that is pro-life, pro-helping the poor and needy, and anti-torture. I am also willing to pay high enough taxes to have good roads, excellent schools, and a well prepared/well trained military. (I don’t want to buy my government out of the bargain bin.)
Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans fit my whole bill. But I became sick of Republicans when they were sending soldiers I personally knew to Iraq without body armor among about a thousand other things through the course of the Iraq war. (My husband stationed with the 1st Armor Division in Germany when 9/11 happened).
So now I am a Democrat - The Republicans didn't end abortion after years of congressional control, but I'm kinda hoping the Democrats will end torture.
BTW- I was born in 1968 so I suppose I am sort-of a product of the sixties
Laurie
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 07:14 pm |
|
Hi Laurie,
I understand how you feel about the Republican party, but then again, how can you be a member of the Democratic party which supports the wholesale slaughter of millions of unborn babies. They are championing the cause for partail birth abortion which is nothing short of murder, period! Also, Democrats support same-sex marriage and adoption among these couples. I'm sure if you were to look into their party platform, quite a bit of what they support is directly opposed to Catholic beliefs.
Why not become an independent? That way, you can have inner assurance that you do not belong to a party that supports murder of any kind.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 07:31 pm |
|
Darlene wrote: I understand how you feel about the Republican party, but then again, how can you be a member of the Democratic party which supports the wholesale slaughter of millions of unborn babies. They are championing the cause for partail birth abortion which is nothing short of murder, period! Also, Democrats support same-sex marriage and adoption among these couples. I'm sure if you were to look into their party platform, quite a bit of what they support is directly opposed to Catholic beliefs.
Why not become an independent? That way, you can have inner assurance that you do not belong to a party that supports murder of any kind.
Boy, did this thread drift off-topic! And I'm going to add to it!
In Louisiana we have open primaries, meaning that all candidates, regardless of political party, run on the same ballot. Any person can vote for any candidate.
That was not the case when I originally registered to vote. We had party primaries and the Democrat was always elected. There was a "rubber-stamp" general election between the Democrat and the Republican, but the Republican never won. Too much animosity in this former Confederate state over the carpetbaggers after the Civil War. So I registered as a Democrat to vote in the primaries, and when open primaries started, I never bothered to change it because there was no reason. I always voted pro-life regardless, and still do, unless there is another, overriding issue (as in our 1991 race for governer between the racist and the crook).
When I ran for public office in the early 90's, there was no way I was going to run as a Democrat and accept their pro-abortion stance, amd no way I was going to run as a Republican with their disregard for social justice and environmental issues. I changed my affiliation to "none" (our equivalent of Independent).
In 2000, the presidential election was between Al Gore and George Bush. However, in our state's presidential primary, only registered party members could vote. Dr. Alan Keyes, an African-American, pro-life, Catholic candidate, was on our ballot as a Republican, so only registered Republicans could vote for him. I changed my affiliation to Republican only to vote for him in the primary. I am still registered as a Republican because I haven't had a reason to change.
I don't vote for the party but for the candidate, except in the last election when I deliberately voted for the Republican for congress as a protest against the election of Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House.
I have serious problems with both political parties and I would never run for office as a member of either party. But my registration remains Republican just in case Dr. Keyes runs again in 2008.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
stephanpetersgirl
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 15th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Converting to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 3rd, 2006 06:40 am |
|
cajunrick wrote: Darlene wrote: I understand how you feel about the Republican party, but then again, how can you be a member of the Democratic party which supports the wholesale slaughter of millions of unborn babies. They are championing the cause for partail birth abortion which is nothing short of murder, period! Also, Democrats support same-sex marriage and adoption among these couples. I'm sure if you were to look into their party platform, quite a bit of what they support is directly opposed to Catholic beliefs.
Why not become an independent? That way, you can have inner assurance that you do not belong to a party that supports murder of any kind.
I don't vote for the party but for the candidate.
First to Darlene:
There are some pro-life Democrats. And there are few people of any party championing the cause of partial birth abortion. - thankfully!
The Democratic party believes in many things I am passionate about. I really believe it is important to help the poor and I really really really believe it is wrong to hold people of any country without formal charges or a trial and torture them. For years I voted only on the pro-life issue, and then when my "pro-life" party was finally elected and gained control of almost all the government, they brought about death and torture, and didn't even do anything of substance to stop the killing of babies. To me, they are the party of death, not life.
The priest at our local parish, who considers himself a neocon Republican, has assured me that the Catholic church is a lot bigger than American politics - and I am thankful about that too! So I will keep working on my RCIA stuff.
For several years my husband and I didn't go to church at all because of politics. If you are interested in our (very very very long and mostly boring) story see:
http://www.renaissance-seamstress.com/rcia/ (I'm a little nervous to post this here :? It is really long, and people who don't know us already will probably be bored to tears by it, but I think that it does describe me as a person. I'm not some kind of ogre . . . because of my political beliefs . . . My husband is the one who put in all the helpful links
Second to Cajunrick:
I voted for both Democratic and Republican candidates in the last few elections too. I just want the candidate who will do the most good for the most people. I feel that if Republicans (as a whole) had been serious about stopping the wholesale murder of innocent babies, they'd have acted very quickly sometime during the last few years when they held the white house and congress.
Laurie
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 3rd, 2006 10:21 am |
|
stephanpetersgirl wrote: If you are interested in our (very very very long and mostly boring) story see:
http://www.renaissance-seamstress.com/rcia/ (I'm a little nervous to post this here :? It is really long
It doesn't seem too long to me. You can post it, or you can make it an attachment to a message, or you can email the whole thing to me and I'll decide whether or not you should post it.
I believe there is a 5000 word limit to posts, but the link you gave above is much shorter than that.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 4th, 2006 03:13 pm |
|
Cajunrick,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this. I'm aware of the Anglican Rite and even took a look at it on a website. Excellent.
Perhaps, though, you're not aware that the towns and cities you listed are all in central and eastern Mass, and are several hours away. But I'm praying and hoping that someday soon, an Anglican Rite church will surface in Western Massachusetts, (but not the Berkshires, another hour to the west.)
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 4th, 2006 03:19 pm |
|
| When in doubt, remember to vote for the lesser devil.
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 4th, 2006 03:26 pm |
|
Stephanspetersgirl,
Is that Anglican church near the old BX in the Hainerberg section of Wiesbaden. I used to live on Friedenstrasse as a kid when my dad was stationed there during the early sixties. What a beautiful city, no matter what church one attends there. (Well, I hope it's a Catholic one.)
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 4th, 2006 04:19 pm |
|
Steven Barrett wrote: Perhaps, though, you're not aware that the towns and cities you listed are all in central and eastern Mass, and are several hours away. But I'm praying and hoping that someday soon, an Anglican Rite church will surface in Western Massachusetts, (but not the Berkshires, another hour to the west.)
Your profile does not list your location information, so I would have no way to know that. I'm not terribly familiar with the geography of Massachusetts. If you live in a diocese other than Boston, they may offer similar liturgies.
Sorry, it was just a suggestion.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 979 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
</ | | | |
