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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 03:38 pm |
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Lutheran scholar Carl E. Braaten has recently written about a spate of recent Catholic converts, coming out of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (my emphases added):
I am writing out of a concern I share with others about the theological state of affairs within the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The situation might be described as one of "brain drain." Theologians who have served Lutheranism for many years in various capacities have recently left the ELCA and have entered the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church in America.
Why?
When Jaroslav Pelikan left the ELCA and became a member of the OCA, I felt it was not terribly surprising. After all, he had been reading and writing about the Fathers of Eastern Orthodoxy for so many years, he could quite naturally find himself at home in that tradition, without much explanation. A short time before that Robert Wilken, a leading patristics scholar teaching at the University of Virginia, left the ELCA to become a Roman Catholic. Then other Lutheran theological colleagues began to follow suit. Jay Rochelle, who for many years was my colleague and the chaplain at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago joined the Orthodox Church. Why? Leonard Klein, pastor of a large Lutheran parish in York, Pennsylvania, and former editor of Lutheran Forum and Forum Letter, last year left the ELCA to study for the Roman Catholic priesthood. Why? This year Bruce Marshall, who taught theology for about fifteen years at St. Olaf College and was a long-standing member of the International Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue, has left the ELCA to enter the Roman Catholic Church. Why? David Fagerberg, formerly professor of religion at Concordia College, although coming from a strong Norwegian Lutheran family, left the ELCA for the Roman Catholic Church, and now teaches at the University of Notre Dame. Reinhard Huetter, a German Lutheran from Erlangen University, came to the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago fifteen years ago to teach theology and ethics, now teaches at Duke Divinity School, and this year became a Roman Catholic. Why? Mickey Mattox, a theologian who recently served at the Lutheran Ecumenical Institute in Strasbourg and now teaches at Marquette University, has recently begun the process of becoming a Roman Catholic.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 153 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 07:02 pm |
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| God's peace. Why, indeed? If the truth is what really matters, and you are earnestly seeking it, then why wouldn't you be drawn to the Truth? Our Lord promised us that this would happen. It happened to me! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Nov 30th, 2007 10:51 pm |
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Hey, I left the Lutheran Church and became Roman Catholic, too!  But no one seems too worried about ME!
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Dec 1st, 2007 05:32 pm |
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Well, that can be a blessing, Jill! You'll get less of a hard time if no one is worried about ya! 
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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ASimpleSinner
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| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 04:07 am |
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JillD wrote: Hey, I left the Lutheran Church and became Roman Catholic, too! But no one seems too worried about ME!
Nonsense JillD! It just so happens that the text quoted is just an excerpt!
I will have you know the very next paragraph started with "And then we lost JillD... What's up with that?"
Welcome home!
-Simple
Last edited on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 04:26 am by ASimpleSinner
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ASimpleSinner
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| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 04:25 am |
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Not too long ago on TitusOneNine the following was posted....
Here are a few more academics who have converted to RC in the last few years. Not a complete list, I’m sure.
Russel Reno, former Episcopalian, who teaches theology at Creighton University and is the author of In the Ruins of the Church: Sustaining Faith in an Age of Diminished Christianity
Douglas Farrow, former Anglican, Associate Professor of Christian Thought at the Faculty of Religious Studies, McGill University
J. Budziszewski, former Episcopalian, who teaches in the departments of government and philosophy at the University of Texas at Austin.
Robert Wilken, a leading patristics scholar teaching at the University of Virginia, left the ELCA to become a Roman Catholic.
Bruce Marshall, who taught theology for about fifteen years at St. Olaf College and was a long-standing member of the International Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue,
David Fagerberg, formerly professor of religion at Concordia College, although coming from a strong Norwegian Lutheran family, left the ELCA for the Roman Catholic Church, and now teaches at the University of Notre Dame.
Reinhard Huetter, a German Lutheran from Erlangen University, came to the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago fifteen years ago to teach theology and ethics, now teaches at Duke Divinity School, and last year became a Roman Catholic.
Mickey Mattox, a theologian who recently served at the Lutheran Ecumenical Institute in Strasbourg and now teaches at Marquette University.
Josh Hochschild – Former Episcopalian. Professor of Philosophy, Wheaton.
Gerald Schlabach, former Mennonite, St. Thomas University.
David Mills
Al Kimel
Paul Griffiths
Not all of them Lutheran - some of them Episcopal - but I thought it was interesting. I was preparing a piece for my own blog with the letter Dave A. quoted as well as the above.
It is amazing to me how very Catholic the Universal Church is with various and sundry nations and converts from these different backgrounds.
More amazing to me still is what a wealth of knowledge these men bring with them. True assets, I am glad we got them!
As to Dave's original post with the excerpt from the letter... God bless and keep Pastor Braaten, but he seems to not quite connect two pieces of the puzzle. To read his open letter, you would think that the moves these men made were merely that of disaffected parties who realigned in a fashion common to sectarian and denominational (non-Catholic) Christianity. While Braaten states clearly
"It is not merely the pull of Orthodoxy or Catholicism that enchants them, but also the push from the ELCA, as they witness with alarm the drift of their church into the morass of what some have called Liberal Protestantism"
He then goes on to say
"The ELCA is driving out the best and the brightest theologians of our day, not because it is too Lutheran, but because it has become putatively just another liberal protestant denomination."
This leaves me scratching my head...
Did these men convert because the ELCA had "lost its way"? Maybe that was the start of what caused them to look elsewhere. But one would hope once they had their gaze firmly fixed Romeward, they were assenting to something they were entering, not just dissenting from something they were leaving.
Maybe if it weren't for the tumltuous situation (Providence?) in the ELCA and TEC everyone would have stayed cozy where they were... But an attempt on Braaten's part to imply that if the ELCA were more Lutheran and less liberal, this would not happen, seems disconnected. If the ELCA were more Lutheran, these men would, could, or should have ignored on been left unbothered by certain (as Catholics understand) deficiencies in Lutheranism/Protestantism in general?
More succinctly, ask any one of these men...
...If the ELCA returned to the kind of Lutheranism that Braaten learned - from Nygren, Aulen, Bring, Pinomaa, Schlink, P. Brunner, Bonhoeffer, Pannenberg, Piepkorn, Quanbeck, Preus, and Lindbeck today, would they return tomorrow?
...Would "solid confessional Lutheranism" affect their decision and then evince a return?
...Would they leave Rome, and forego the papacy, the Catholic understaning of sacraments, the saints, the Mother of God, the nature and necessity of Holy Orders trasnmitted via Apostolic Succession?
I believe the answer is no. Once that genie is out of the bottle - no matter how the bottle was opened - it would take a heck of a lot to stick it back in. How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen the Eternal City?
Last edited on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 05:04 am by ASimpleSinner
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Br_Carlo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 153 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 06:43 am |
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God's peace. I found that in my own conversion from the Episcopal Church the catalyst for change was the terrible moral swamp that that body has created for itself. I believe that God used this to call me to the Truth, as in the OT passage "Come ye out from among them."
Yes, being "more Lutheran" might have allowed the status quo to remain--but Our Savior sends not peace, but a sword to stir things up and cut relationships asunder in his zeal for His Father! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 02:33 pm |
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Hi simplesinner,
They have to have some sort of explanation that makes sense of what to them seems like a senseless move.
Think about it. If you are in a Christian denomination, and folks are leaving left and right for a Church that you think is dreadfully wrong on many issues, you have to have some sort of interpretation that explains this, besides that other Church being TRUE. Therefore, all these theories are made up: smells and bells, the security of being told your theology instead of having to think it through, being merely emotionally fed up with Protestant in-fighting and tendency to liberalism, etc. They latch onto those, rather than directly face the truth claims of the Catholic Church. It's quite pathetic to observe.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 05:31 pm |
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ASimpleSinner wrote: JillD wrote: Hey, I left the Lutheran Church and became Roman Catholic, too! But no one seems too worried about ME!
Nonsense JillD! It just so happens that the text quoted is just an excerpt!
I will have you know the very next paragraph started with "And then we lost JillD... What's up with that?"
Welcome home!
-Simple
Wow, REALLY??? That's something, isn't it? They DO miss me!!!!!
[Thanks for the giggle.... ]
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 06:05 pm |
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Wow, REALLY??? That's something, isn't it? They DO miss me!!!!!
OF COURSE they do! Was that ever really in doubt? 
Last edited on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 06:05 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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ASimpleSinner
Member
| Joined: | Sun Nov 4th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 40 |
| First Name: | Simple | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Byzantine Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 07:57 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Hi simplesinner,
They have to have some sort of explanation that makes sense of what to them seems like a senseless move.
Think about it. If you are in a Christian denomination, and folks are leaving left and right for a Church that you think is dreadfully wrong on many issues, you have to have some sort of interpretation that explains this, besides that other Church being TRUE. Therefore, all these theories are made up: smells and bells, the security of being told your theology instead of having to think it through, being merely emotionally fed up with Protestant in-fighting and tendency to liberalism, etc. They latch onto those, rather than directly face the truth claims of the Catholic Church. It's quite pathetic to observe.
DEAD ON.
You ask any of those fine men why they became Catholic, I bet you would be hard-pressed to get any of them to answer "Because we were fed up with being XXXX" As Homer Simpson said "Once you go Vatican, you never go back-again!"
Not to beat a dead horse, but Braaten just misses the boat. Honestly, if they were just disaffected, I can't imagine why they would not have gone Missori Synod or some other smaller but more conservative branch of Luteranism in the US.
Who in their right mind would accept so much "popery" and "mariolatry" just to get away from liberalism? Especially when they will have to deal with much of the same in the Catholic Church. EXCEPT in the Catholic Church when "Sister Mary-Relative" or "Father What's-happenen" says something off kilter, we are still free to call it what it is - heresy.
Its one thing just to run from something, it is an altogether different story to run TO something.
-Simple
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Dec 7th, 2007 02:24 pm |
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In my case, I wasn't all that unhappy at all as an evangelical. I simply followed truth wherever it led, after further study. I got curious, studied, started being convinced, and all of a sudden I found myself saying "Catholicism is true . . ."
Yeah, I think that if you are merely fed up with something religiously, you would tend to become secular or nominal rather than simply going somewhere else. That may start the ball rolling, but it can't explain adoption of Catholicism. More has to be going on than that, because, as you say, there is plenty of laxity and liberalism in local parishes, to be disgusted about.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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