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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 03:34 am |
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I just had a LONGGGG conversation with an old friend. She is grieved about my decision to become Catholic. Her family and ours were once in the MJ movement together. They are still deeply involved. Obviously, God led us elsewhere. She's so sorry that she didn't keep in touch with us after they moved away so that she could help me through the difficulties I had making sense of MJ'ism, and she can't figure out how an intelligent woman like me could make such an unbelievable decision.
It was a difficult conversation. Terms have different meanings to me and to her. She was shocked at many of my beliefs, naturally. She begged me that if ever Pope Benedict advocated splitting Jerusalem up and giving a piece to Islam that I should RUN AWAY from the CC as fast as possible. She spoke about covenant, and that Israel, as she understands that term, is more important than the Messiah because Israel is the name of God. (God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel.)
It was an exhausting conversation. What I'd like to find now is the conversion story of a deeply involved MJ to the RCC. I don't know if I'd send it to her; she probably wouldn't read it. But I'd like to read about how God took someone with that mindset and moved them to the Church.
Can anyone help me with this? Written form, spoken form, it doesn't matter. Or, if not an actual convert, who might be a good person to ask? I'm thinking about Rosalind Moss, perhaps.
Thanks for your help! We ended the conversation by saying we'd pray for the other to come to their senses (we were smiling!). I'm planning to ask St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, Edith Stein, to pray for them. That's one advantage I have over my friend: I have the whole host of Heaven to enlist! She's on her own....
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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paulr
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| Joined: | Mon Sep 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Maple Falls, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Paul | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifelong Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 01:14 pm |
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Jill,
I suggest that you start with Marty Barrack -
http://www.secondexodus.com/
paul
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 07:17 pm |
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paulr wrote:
I suggest that you start with Marty Barrack -
Thank you, Paul. That website has a lot of info. Marty's conversion story, though, is not what I need. He was a cultural Jew who married a Catholic. I listened to his story on the Journey Home show. No, I need a fully practicing Jew, preferably a believing, ie Messianic, Jew. I hope someone knows someone .......
Thanks again!
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 07:55 pm |
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Hi Jill, the conversion story that most come to mind is Bob Fishman who was on JH back in 2000. Other wise I recommend this site which has a whole bunch of conversion stories (and links to JH audios) listed by faith (Jewish is about halfway down the page)
Regards Dave
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 01:08 am |
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I'm listening to Bob Fishman right now and that could be it! Thank you! If my friend would listen to it, she'd probably roll her eyes right out of her head, but, whatever. A believing Jew, not a cultural Jew, becomes Catholic. Just what I was looking for.
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 05:02 pm |
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Hi Jill,
Here is a conversion story from Ken Wilsker, who was a Messianic Jew, at least for a time:
http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals/0/Documents/Story60KenWilsker.doc
There are many conversion stories of many types of Jews, that may have some relation to what you're trying to convey to your friend, on this page (scroll about halfway down, to see "Jewish" on the left):
http://www.thisisthefaith.com/Contents/ConversionStories/tabid/93/Default.aspx
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 24th, 2007 05:51 pm |
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Hi Dave,
Yes, I caught Ken Wilsker's story. He only briefly mentions having been Messianic for a short while. No detail. I didn't see any MJ's on that longer list either. I am going to send her the link to Bob Fishman's interview on The Journey Home, though it will only make her nutty IF she chooses to listen to it. Thank you, too, for the links about the Passover/Lord's Supper connection. I will spend some time reading up.
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Bill Kirscher
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Denver, Colorado USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 02:34 pm |
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Jill,
I saw you mentioned Rosalind Moss but don't know if you got in touch with her. My wife is a Gentile worshipping at a MJ congregation here in Denver - such a spirit filled group of people. I myself am a revert to Catholicism and have been praying for a couple years now for my wife to one day join me in the Eucharist and have sought advice from Rosalind.
There is an outstanding forum where I think you will receive a great deal of support and should be able to contact Rosalind. Here is a link to the web-site:
http://hebrewcatholic.org/
This is a group of people who share a mission similar to the Messianic Jewish movement but carry out their mission in fidelity to the Catholic Church and the teachings of the Magesterium. Many members are former MJs who have come to find the richness of the Church founded by Yeshua.
I would suggest you make a post to the forum "AssocHebrewCatholics@yahoo.com" (there are links to it on the website) and I know very shortly, many will share their stories with you, offer advice, and pray for you.
Shalom,
Bill
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 03:20 pm |
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Welcome to the forum, Bill, and thanks for your informative first post. I'm sure it was very helpful to Jill.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 04:56 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Welcome to the forum, Bill, and thanks for your informative first post. I'm sure it was very helpful to Jill.
Amen, and thank you, especially for the link to the forum. I'll give it a look and see if I can figure out how to post. (I've never gotten it figured out at Catholic Answers, for example...)
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Bill Kirscher
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Denver, Colorado USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 05:16 pm |
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Jill - Let me know how I can help out. I can either help step you through it, or I can relay messages for you via normal e-mail. I'm interested in the responses you will get.
My experience with my wife has been that intelectual arguments do no good and so I've resorted to prayer, patience, and trust in God. I really think this is the very reason I'm going through this spiritual division with my wife.
Perhaps your friend is more open to discussion, in which case, this forum will surely help. One thing I've discovered in my reversion and deeper understanding of our faith is how deep it is in our Jewish roots. The more I study, the more I see our faith foreshadowed in the Old Testament and the Jewish faith brought to it's fullness in Yeshua and His Church. (I could go on for pages talking about the Passover and the Eucharist!!!!).
Anyhow, let me know how I can help.
Bill
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 05:39 pm |
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Hi Bill,
You hit the nail on the head. My friends won't listen to anything unless what I'm saying supports their position. But I would still like to hear what DID get through to someone who converted from MJ'ism to the Church. It would perhaps give me some ammo for future use.
I'll let you know if I run into difficulties posting my question. Thanks!
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 06:14 pm |
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Hi Bill,
OK, I think I subscribed. I then sent a message to assochebrewcatholics@yahoogroups.com, but it was returned as undeliverable. Does it take some time for the group to "accept" you? I sent it from my yahoo mail account.
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Bill Kirscher
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Denver, Colorado USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Fri Dec 28th, 2007 11:52 pm |
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I haven't seen your post yet but will keep an eye out for it.
My apologies if this info is redundant. I tried sending it earlier but have been having problems posting and reading from this forum. I'm interested to see the response you get from AHC because I'm having with my wife the same issues you are having with your friends.
She is a Gentile who worships in a Messianic Jewish congregation here in Denver. She has been exposed to a lot of anti-Catholicism in her journey mostly from what I call Evangelical/Fundamentalists. It isn't as bad at the MJ congregation but it is still there. I think she finally acknowledges that the Catholic Church is not the "Whore of Babylon" and that the Pope isn't the "Anti-Christ" but she is still receiving anti-Catholic messages.
The story she gets is that Christianity significantly departed from it's Jewish roots when Constantine legalized Christianity. Since then, as the story goes, paganism has slowly crept into the Catholic Church to the point where it no longer represents the early church. Some "scholars" even go so far as to say the Church ceased to exist from sometime shortly after Constantine to the Reformation. I bought into this for a while until I studied church history and see evidence of distinctly Catholic doctrine from the Apostolic fathers (not to mention throughout scripture).
I could go on and on about my "reversion" but instead want to point out what I've observed as contradictions from my experiences in the MJ congregation I've been to here in Denver. They claim to have a more "authentic" understanding and practice of the faith and that mainstream Christianity has abandoned it's Jewish roots. What I've observed instead is that their beliefs and worship style are pretty much right in line with Evangelical/Fundamentalists, the primary difference being some songs are in Hebrew, and a bit more emphasis on the O.T.. From what I've observed, the Catholic Church seems to be more "Jewish" than the MJ movement. Some examples ...
- I've discovered that Judaism always was and still is very liturgical in worship style. The MJ services I've been to are nearly identical to many of the Evangelical/Fundamentalist services and are focused on a worship band (playing songs for nearly an hour) and the preacher’s message. Instead of worshiping and participating in liturgy together as a family, children go off to “Shabbat School”. Growing up Catholic, I was not accustomed to seeing the family split up when they should be worshipping together. The first time I saw this was in an Evangelical/Fundamentalist church.
- Judaism has always been understood in light of both sacred scripture AND sacred tradition. Moses was given a written AND an oral Torah. The faith was always taught and passed on by Rabbis who were recognized as having authority (sort of like apostolic succession). This understanding is captured in secondary writings such as the Talmud. In Catholicism we also believe in sacred scripture AND sacred tradition and have the catechism as a secondary source. MJs believe in the Protestant idea of "sola-scriptura" (i.e. scripture alone) and (inconsistently) reject any teaching that cannot be found in scripture.
- Jews acknowledge that God was truly present in the burning bush, that he was truly present in the tabernacle, and that he was truly present in the pillar of smoke that guided Israel through the desert. MJs, like Evangelicals/Fundamentalists and other Protestant denominations, reject any sort of presence in the Eucharist as a “pagan practice”.
- Jews understand Passover as a celebration where God mysteriously brings the events of Passover into a present reality where the release from the bondage of Egypt is celebrated. This is exactly what the Sacrifice of the Mass is – a celebration where the Sacrifice of the Spotless Lamb is mysteriously made present in our lives where we celebrate the release from the bondage of sin. MJs reject this notion of the Mass and consider it a “pagan” celebration.
- Jews recognize the reality that God manifests his grace to his people in real, physical, tangible (i.e. sacramental) ways. MJs, like Evangelical/Fundamentalists, reject the regenerative nature of baptism and other sacraments – otherwise they would be considered “works”. Having said that, I have seen the MJ pastor anoint members with oil. I’ve never seen incense used despite the fact that Jews burned it in the Temple and considered the smoke to be prayers rising up to God.
- I don’t remember the name of the prayer but Jews offer prayers for deceased up until the 11th month after their death. The prayers are considered “meritous”. Yet, like Evangelical/Fundamentalists and most other Protestants, they deny purgatory and the benefit of prayers for the deceased.
- They celebrate Chanukah instead of Christmas because Christmas is a “pagan” celebration that isn’t specifically mentioned in scripture. The irony is that Chanukah is not even mentioned in their Protestant version of the Old Testament. Why did Jesus celebrate it? He either celebrated it because of tradition or he celebrated it because it is recorded in Macabees.
- At the very end of the MJ service, the Pastor breaks bread and drinks wine. There is no communal participation in this and it lasts about 30 seconds. I assume this is their version of communion. It nearly brings me to tears to see what should be a celebration of the Real Presence, denigrated to some quick, virtually meaningless gesture that is left on a table and ignored. I could go on for hours talking about how “Jewish” the Eucharist really is but MJs, like Evangelical/Fundamentalists, see it as something “pagan”.
This post is getting too long. The point I’m trying to make is that I believe the Catholic Church is much truer to the Jewish roots of our faith than Messianic Judaism is. In fact, to quote (possibly quite loosely) from Rosalind Moss, the Mass is “Like a synagogue with Yeshua”.
Shalom,
Bill
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 03:48 am |
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Bill, Many points you made were incredibly helpful. I especially like the one about the "real presence" in the Tabernacle, but not in the Eucharist.
And you're so right about the Evangelical-ness of MJ's, especially of the services I have been to. I should ask my friend what her synagogue's (?) services are like.
I did post on the AHC group, but maybe it hasn't gone through. I'm not real sure what I'm doing.... Here is what I posted. If it doesn't show up pretty soon, maybe you would post it for me???
I'm new here, referred by someone at the Coming Home Network forum. I have some friends who are grieved by my decision to join the Catholic Church. They are in the Messianic Jewish movement full-bore: observe the feasts religiously, eat kosher, keep the Saturday Sabbath, etc. Their position is that "Israel" is of more importance than "Messiah." That's what she told me!
I'd leave well enough alone, but I'm tiring of their sorrow and grieving for me while I am, in contrast, filled with joy to be a Catholic. We had been in the MJ movement with them for a short time beginning about 15 years ago. Since then, we've been around the block a time or two. I kept searching for truth, and found it in the CC. She can't figure out how an intelligent person like me (her words!) could make a decision like that.
Well, I'm looking for the testimonies of folks who've left MJ'ism for the CC. What got through to you? What made sense? What part of MJ'ism ceased to make sense? Or, perhaps, you've been able to combine the practice of Judaism with the practice of Catholicism. Why not???
Thank you, Bill....
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Bill Kirscher
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Denver, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 11 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 11:20 am |
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Posts here are getting frustrating. This is the second time a message I've sent has failed to post so I'll try again.
There is already a response to your post by a former MJ but the person would rather e-mail it directly to you. You need to try again to get into the forum or I can pass on your e-mail address.
Also, check out this website. It's from a gentile that worshipped at a MJ congregation in Israel and then reverted.
http://www.israelcatholic.com/
Check out the "testimonies" link.
Bill
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 11:29 am |
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Bill Kirscher wrote: I tried sending it earlier but have been having problems posting and reading from this forum.
We are having problems with our web host that hopefully will be resolved shortly.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Dec 31st, 2007 01:03 pm |
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Hi Bill,
I recently created this web page, that collects many related articles of mine, and links. You might be interested in it:
Jews, Judaism, and the Old Testament
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 06:17 pm |
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Hi Jill, while catching up on some old podcasts of Catholic Answer Live, I caught "16 Jews Find the Sweetness of Christ" 14/Dec/07 where the guest Rob Schoeman discussed his two books "Salvation is from the Jews" and his new one "Honey from the Rock: Sixteen Jews find the Sweetness of Christ" which obviously contains conversion stories of 16 Jews who came into the Catholic Church.
Anyway during the show he referenced his website which, though I haven't checked out thoroughly I thought might be of help to you.
Regards Dave
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2008 08:26 pm |
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Hi Dave,
Thank you for the tip. My sponsor actually got me that book for Christmas and it was sitting under our tree when all this hoopla began. I wrote to her for advice about my MJ friends and she adamantly told me, though it was 3 or 4 days before Christmas, "Open Your Christmas Present!" Isn't that an amazing coincidence??
There are some fantastic testimonies in there, but none of hard-core MJ's converting to the Church. I'm beginning to think that their perspective is so cult-like that they're beyond reasoning with. And since my last salvo 5 days ago, I haven't heard a reply. Maybe they've shaken the dust off their feet. Ha!
Jill
____________________
"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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