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val4u
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| First Name: | bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 11:07 am |
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Hello All, If it were not for the English Mass and Vatican 11, I would not have heard the words that sort of solidified my understanding of the Mass. Because of those words I now realize the deep roots of the Catholic Church and why we have a liturgy instead of three songs, a collection and an hour or so on one verse of the Bible.
Because of those words, I see a direct connection from the Passover meal to todays Mass and they are the blessing that Christ said over the bread and wine. Its not in the Bible because everyone knew it. If the choir is not singing too loud or too long, you will hear them at Mass and they are: Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation; which is a version of the begining of all prayers by the Jews.
I grew up in the Latin Mass so it is not hard for me to use it in todays Mass but, all you have to do is give it a Latin name and the Protestants think that it is evil such as a friend of mine said " Whats this Opus Dei thing anywhey.
Hang in there this is the place to be, God Bless you all.
Bill
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Hidden One
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 08:56 pm |
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Vatican 11?  I think I msut have missed 9 ecumenical councils.
Vatican II, however... 
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japhy
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 09:32 pm |
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Those Protestants who fear every Latin word... do they use the word "pastor"? That's straight out of Latin!
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Apr 1st, 2008 10:09 pm |
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val4u wrote:
... all you have to do is give it a Latin name and the Protestants think that it is evil such as a friend of mine said " Whats this Opus Dei thing anywhey.
It could be one of several things:
Focus locus and hocus/pocus of a future Dan Brown book and movie.
The mother of all Papist Conspiracies to scare th' bejeeeezus of this nation like no other in our history. Rum, Romanism and Rebellion has nothing on this beaut. Get yer muskets, this is the real thang ... even th' th' th' th' P p p p p p p pope is coming soon.
Sher 'splain's why our fishwraps have been running all those old nasty Nast drawings today, showing all them croccodiles swimmin' up to our shores, only to reveal themselves for what they are, the first wave of popery!
That Opus Dei bunch's nothing but the shock troops sent over by the Pope to sneak his own special brand of eye-talian Kool Aid laced with flouride -- either that or he's still working for the German army ...
Take your pick, but don't tell your Protestant friend the answer until April 2nd. You want this to last a while. 
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 12:40 am |
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Steven Barrett wrote: Take your pick, but don't tell your Protestant friend the answer until April 2nd. You want this to last a while.
Then there's the old story of the athiest who wanted to ban religious holidays because he didn't participate in them. The judge told him, "Of course you have your own religious holiday. April 1st!"
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Marcia
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 10:41 am |
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val4u wrote: I grew up in the Latin Mass so it is not hard for me to use it in todays Mass but, all you have to do is give it a Latin name and the Protestants think that it is evil such as a friend of mine said " Whats this Opus Dei thing anywhey.
I hope that you will forgive me for defending the Protestants, but most of my friends are Protestants. A pastor of a church that I attended didn't want to be called Reverand because he said that he is no better than we are--he is a sinner just like us. I think that the main reason that Protestants are so anti-Catholic is because they don't understand our beliefs. One of the big ones is that we worship idols because we have statues of the saints. It's not the Latin that is used in the Mass. I had a long talk with my priest before I decided to convert because I had a lot of misconceptions about Catholicism. I used to attend a Protestant Bible study and, when a lady started attacking the Catholic Church, the pastor permitted me to defend it.  Afterwards, he apologized for her actions. This was the same pastor who threw a fit when I joined the Catholic Church.
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Marcia
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 02:30 pm |
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So much of what you say is true, but what I found over and over long before I became Catholic and even more now that I am is that far too many protestants ( including my family) don't want to listen really- Every visit with my in-laws before my father in law died would some how work it's around to my (then )Anglican beliefs. We would sit down after dinner and he would say "so tell me again why do you worship Mary and the statues, when the Bible say clearly not to" and we would discuss it YET again or" tell me , why did you baptise those babies when they couldn't make a choice for them selves- that's nonsense you know" he was not stupid man either, he was a pharmacist and worked full time until shortly before his death. Perhaps we Catholics are just as bad- though to be honest I have never heard a Catholic start a religious conversation, all the ones in my circle will just say "well that is what we believe" and subside into silence..
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 02:45 pm |
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Marcia wrote: val4u wrote: all you have to do is give it a Latin name and the Protestants think that it is evil such as a friend of mine said " Whats this Opus Dei thing anywhey.
I hope that you will forgive me for defending the Protestants, but most of my friends are Protestants.
Let's remember that there are some 38,000 Protestant denominations. Some are virulently anti-Catholic, and others are quite friendly and accomodating.
So it depends on which Protestants you're talking about. The fact is that you're both right, you just know different Protestants!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 02:54 pm |
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On further reflection, in MY opinion one of the differences between Catholica and Protestants is that Catholics for the most part have been raised to trust and Protestants have been raised to prove their beliefs. In a sense they are the doubting Thomas' of the Christian world- if it can't proven to their understanding they they often find another church to attend. Catholics are far more apt to say "I don't really understand this but I trust that it is a truth and I will in God's time come to understand it" and stay where they are. One example of not questioning in my own life as follows When my husband and I were still dating he came with me to my Anglican church- it was totally foreign to him. After he asked me " you won't share a dessert fork with friends in a restaurant but you go up and take drink of wine from a cup that all kinds of people are drinking from" My answer was "but that is different the chalice contians wine that is sacred" He just shook his head, completely baffled and I on the other hand even being a nurse had never questioned whether the communion cup passed germs or not.
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Yeah Rick you are right. The truth is that until I married my husband I had never heard of apologetics. THEN I got married and became one myself (obviously strictly an amateur so don't go shaking in your boots Dave )
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 08:55 pm |
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I didn't realize till recently, Kim, that you had such a dry wit.  Must be that English / Anglican heritage, huh?
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Wed Apr 2nd, 2008 09:41 pm |
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Yep, gets me into trouble all the time- people sometimes think that I am serious especially on lists
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Marcia
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 10:37 am |
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| It's interesting that you brought up baptism because I wasn't baptised as a baby. My parents said that they wanted my brother and me to remember our baptism, so I was baptised when I was about 10 years old. I still didn't remember it. Then I made the decision to be baptised by immersion when I was in my 30's and it was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. As it turns out, my baptism as a child would not have counted when I became Catholic because I was "sprinkled" and we were told that the water had to be poured on heads. Isn't it interesting that Protestants can't even agree on how to baptise people and some churches don't even require you to be baptised to join it?
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 03:26 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: 
...Ideally, Latin should be THE langua franca for the Western Church, which comprises most of Catholicism. It's also logical since there are so many western languages sharing many latin roots in their words. So, if you get a little lost (esp. at an 8 am Mass, or 4 pm the previous day after doing half a million things before heading off to Church) it shouldn't be terribly hard to find your "lost spot." I've taken a little French, did horrible in several attempts in German and wouldn't know my way out of wet paper bag with warm water flowing over it during a Polish Mass.
And I've attended several of those, most notably one accompanied with a polka band. And yes, during the Offeratory, the melody of "In Heaven there is no beer" was played. You can imagine what it took for this Mick to keep from rolling in the aisles that day! (My parents were sitting next to me, so I guessed their presence counted for a lot then! My mom wasn't one you wanted to embarrass during Mass or get caught with your fanny resting on the pew seat.)...
Now I need some of that old time coffee!
Steven
Steven,
Thankfullly the Polish Masses I have been too, have been just awesome. I love the ethnicity of cultures. God nourishes his people in amazing ways.
Few realize that the Russian people did not have a written language until the Slavs were evangelized by Sts. Cyril and Methodius, hence the Cyrillic Language (there is a bit more language to it than just that, but...). They did so that they could have the Bible in their tongue, until then it could only be 'oral tradition'. Cyril and Methodius are called 'Equal to the Apostles'. Here is an interesting write up about the saints and the language. http://www.macedoniainfo.com/cyrill_and_methodius.htm
Also, of language, I find it interesting that our daughter is a massage therapist, and she uses Gregorian Chant while giving massage. Now don't think it is a bit odd. She is a very devout young woman, and it opens many opportunities of evanaglization for her. People are being prayed over by the music the her hands, they don't understand the words, but they do realize it is 'holy music'. Living in the 'Bible Belt' few of our Protestant brethern have any idea of what Gregorian Chant is. When she tells them it is in the Psalms being sung in Latin, they become very pleased that she has thought that well of our Lord and them. All, I am trying to say, is that language ministers, whether we understand it our not. Where God's Word is there is peace.
I had to get my husband to quit singing that to our grandbaby - yes we are Polish, well he is - anyway, he would polka around the floor holding him and "singing in heaven there is no beer, that's why we drink it here."
Now my husband doesn't drink - well except when he receives from the Fountain of Life - alcohol, and no beer, that is why it was even funnier. I told him Marley was going to grow up thinking he had to drink beer So now, he sings differnt polkas to him.
 Sorry, I got off track.
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Joslyn
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 03:33 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: It's kind of funny, but I have the opposite attraction. I want to get as close to the original as I can... I also like the idea of everyone around the world being able to hear one language and understand what is going on, and Latin would serve that purpose.
I really liked your post! I feel much the same way. My husband, who is a Maronite-Rite Catholic, and I attend the Maronite Liturgy on a regular basis. I fell in love with it because of the ancient langages uses. I love the hymns, prayers, and especially the way the Consecration is sung! I know enough Arabic to get through the responses at Mass, but most of it goes over my head. Nevertheless, when I am in the midst of that Lirturgy, I feel transported back in time. The consecration, especially, brings me to tears, as it is sung in a beautiful Syriac (a close cousin of Aramaic) chant.
When we can't drive out to Buffalo, or are traveling, Adam and I alternate between the Novus Ordo, Tridentine Latin... now called the "Extrodinary Rite," or other Eastern Rites. I love to celebrate the differences of our Catholic heritage while basking in our complete unity!
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Annie
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 01:38 pm |
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Joslyn wrote: Nevertheless, when I am in the midst of that Lirturgy, I feel transported back in time.
You have indicated here the entire point of liturgy, to get us out of the space-time continuum to see through the window that the consecration opens to Calvary, etc. The ancient languages help with this. As someone said how can we get into eternity when we use the language of the marketplace in the church?
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Ora et labora
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Cathcon
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 03:45 pm |
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I think we forget that one of the beautiful things about Catholocism is that it is not an either or but a both and. What do I mean. We should be worshipping God out of duty, because He commanded it but also out of love. I come from a Calvanist tradition and one thing that always bothered me was choosing between the either or. Either worship out of duty or worship out of love. Being Catholic has given me the opportunity to worship because of both.
I also think we need to remember that the most important thing Our Lord taught us while with us was not just love as well so quickly answer but obedience. Remember the scriptures tell us that He was obediant to the Father even unto death. I think obedience is something that we "moderns" struggle with, I know I do but I also know that in perseverance I have found the love and the "feeling" that I was looking for - it just takes time and being open and... obedient.
God bless
Marie
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Joslyn
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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Annie wrote:You have indicated here the entire point of liturgy, to get us out the space-time continuum to see through the window that the consecration opens to Calvary, etc. The ancient languages help with this. As someone said how can we get into eternity when we use the language of the marketplace in the church?
Good point, Annie. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is just a tiny glimpse of the glory and majesty of Heaven. Ancient languages, hymns, and prayers can only help to facilitate this. However, God uses whatever circumstances we are in to call us to Himself, and any situation may be a stepping-stone to that purpose. When I first attended Mass, I am grateful that the words were in English, because I would constantly recite them during the day to keep my deep anxiety at a manageable level. We have to remember that some people prefer the English, as others prefer different languages or rites. I think that our place is not to criticize anyone for their preferences; rather, we should validate that person's feelings and try understand the underlying motivation.
As someone else said, our Catholicity is not "either or" it is truly both.
In Jesus Through Mary,
Joslyn
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Annie
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 04:42 pm |
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| But it is important to know when "either/or" applies and when it doesn't. Pope Benedict XVI obviously has something to say about this now.
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Ora et labora
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Joslyn
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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Of course. I, personally, love the direction that Pope Benedict is leading the Church in, and I love the integration of Latin into the Novus Ordo. However, when I was all very new to Catholicism, I couldn't appreciate it as much because I didn't understand it. Perhaps that is where many others are coming from. However, I don't think that the answer is to shy away from things we don't understand, and label it as something we "dislike" simply because of that. I think that if people who are skeptical of Latin in the Mass really looked at the prayers and their richness and depth (and references to Scripture)-- especially in the responses of the Mass-- they would come to love it.
Two of my favorite ones are "et cum spirito tuo" (And with thy spirit) and the " Domine, Non Sum Dignus" (Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof... Say but the word and my soul shall be healed), which is a reference to the Centurian speaking to Jesus in Matt 8:8.
Sometimes, words and meanings get lost in translation.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 05:33 pm |
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Joslyn wrote: Sometimes, words and meanings get lost in translation.
And that's why a new translation is near! The two phrases you mentioned in particular are to be translated closer to the Latin. And with your spirit will return!
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Rick Luquette
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Joslyn
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Posted: Tue May 6th, 2008 05:38 pm |
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Yup! I know! Isn't that going to be great?!
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Modern disciple
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 07:22 am |
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| When the Latin mass was allowed again to be celebrated, our Jesuit Chaplain did not allow a group of people who requested for a Latin Mass after knowing that the presider would be that coming from the Pope Pius something-I-forgot. Until now, there's that conflict because our Chaplain could not be pleased. He said that order has been excommunicated because they do not recognize the authority of the pope.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 12:13 pm |
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Modern disciple wrote: When the Latin mass was allowed again to be celebrated, our Jesuit Chaplain did not allow a group of people who requested for a Latin Mass after knowing that the presider would be that coming from the Pope Pius something-I-forgot. Until now, there's that conflict because our Chaplain could not be pleased. He said that order has been excommunicated because they do not recognize the authority of the pope.
There is a schismatic group known as the SSPX (Society of St. Pius X) that broke from the Church over the authority of the pope to revise the liturgy. They are indeed schismatics and if the priest-presider was a member of that society, your priest acted correctly.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Joslyn
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 12:33 pm |
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Modern disciple wrote: When the Latin mass was allowed again to be celebrated, our Jesuit Chaplain did not allow a group of people who requested for a Latin Mass after knowing that the presider would be that coming from the Pope Pius something-I-forgot. Until now, there's that conflict because our Chaplain could not be pleased. |
