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JustaServant
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| Joined: | Wed Dec 19th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 21 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 07:50 pm |
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As time goes on I will add things here and there to my testimony. Here are some thoughts I have had recently reflecting on my days in among independent fundamental baptists:
My world became smaller when I was a fundamentalist. That was because fundamentalists find it difficult to “fellowship” with those different from themselves.
I once heard a fundamentalist preacher say this about any association with Catholics:
“Ignoring their lost state, being tolerant of their false doctrine, and pretending they are one of us is not going to help them get saved.”
The bolded statement is an eye-opening glimpse into the dark pit of the fundamentalist soul. If one believes that he or she has experienced what no other has (being “born again”), and possesses what others other than them could not possibly have (the Holy Spirit), it creates an elitist world-view that allows only those to whom we agree with, to enter.
Over the years I have heard “that person is now a (insert opposition group here), so I had to ’break fellowship’ with them” This is the fundamentalist doctrine of “separation”. A superior, elitist attitude of belonging to a privileged group. Those who do not belong to the group are called “unrepentant brothers and false teachers”
The problem is, that encompasses quite a population if one takes that to its logical conclusion. This encompasses people far beyond hated Catholics and liberals. It also includes people within their own ‘circle’ with whom they disagree. To belong to this ever shrinking circle becomes the object they strive for.
In rationalizing that Christians who don’t agree with you are all “compromisers,” they assume that is the indicator of true spirituality.
They truly believe they are superior. This theological “rigidity” is more important than all other factors. And sadly, there is a trail of broken relationships in their past that is blamed on the actions of the people they “separated” from. Tragically, these broken relationships include family members and former friends.
This completely went against how I was raised by my parents. We did not abandon family and friends based on disagreements or world-view. Jesus taught us to love one another, not to pick and choose whom we love.
I believe one of the reasons fundamental Baptists think this way has to do with living in a fantasy world of their own making. They look to a reality that never existed, and hope for a Utopia that never will exist. When struck by the fact that it does not, it destroys their illusions and they lapse into cynicism and depression. They deal with this by altering reality through 'separation' from whatever or whoever is not like themselves and an end-times fairy tale which allows them to press on in world that does not accept them.
“Fellowshipping” with a group who truly believe they are better than others can be a surreal experience. It leads logically to exclusion based on reasons that hardly fit into their “Biblical world-view”. Many times it is based on race, class, education, and sex.
The sad part is, the longer one “fellowships” with fundamentalists, “separation” from them becomes a relief.
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Former fundamentalist preacher, now a Catholic.
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 268 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 02:10 am |
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| This strikes me as being characteristic of protestantism in general, and is a direct result of Luther's doctrine of "sola scriptura" and the belief that the individual can correctly interpret scripture. Thus the protestants, and the baptists in particular, are forever subdividing, or separating, in an effort to found a more "pure" church based upon a more "correct" interpretation of scripture. As a result, we have thousands of denominations and huge variations in theology among them, ranging from fundy rapture doctrines, to the LDS, to the JW and even to the Unitarians. They all believe they have the correct and most "pure" interpretation of holy writ. The tradition and teaching of the fathers is of little importance, and is secondary to their own private interpretations.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 03:41 am |
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I understand where you're coming from. I believe Steve Ray has called this urge toward purification and separation a kind of Protestant Darwinism. As an example, when I was growing up, we looked on Martin Luther with great awe ... but we would never want to be Lutheran, because our group had progressed beyond Lutheranism, with its robes, backwards collars and pesky habit of baptizing babies.
After reading your post, I have to admit that it bothers me that Protestants see us in basically the same way - a little, insulated, arrogant group that plays games of Us versus Them. That's why Protestants usually say, "I'm a catholic (part of the universal Church) but not a Roman Catholic (a member of a man-made denomination that thinks it's all that and a bag of chips)." Even in their thousands of splinters, they still give lip service (at least) to the idea that they're part of something bigger than themselves.
It's a very rough row to hoe, as my mother would say - not budging from the awesomeness of Catholicism, not giving in to despair as we continue to see so many at Mass just not getting it, and not coming across as arrogant, inflexible and small-minded to those around us. I've been reading some of Dave Armstrong's material on these topics lately, and am glad that I have brethren (and sisteren) like that as resources.
JustaServant wrote: As time goes on I will add things here and there to my testimony. Here are some thoughts I have had recently reflecting on my days in among independent fundamental baptists:
My world became smaller when I was a fundamentalist. That was because fundamentalists find it difficult to “fellowship” with those different from themselves.
I once heard a fundamentalist preacher say this about any association with Catholics:
“Ignoring their lost state, being tolerant of their false doctrine, and pretending they are one of us is not going to help them get saved.”
The bolded statement is an eye-opening glimpse into the dark pit of the fundamentalist soul. If one believes that he or she has experienced what no other has (being “born again”), and possesses what others other than them could not possibly have (the Holy Spirit), it creates an elitist world-view that allows only those to whom we agree with, to enter.
Over the years I have heard “that person is now a (insert opposition group here), so I had to ’break fellowship’ with them” This is the fundamentalist doctrine of “separation”. A superior, elitist attitude of belonging to a privileged group. Those who do not belong to the group are called “unrepentant brothers and false teachers”
The problem is, that encompasses quite a population if one takes that to its logical conclusion. This encompasses people far beyond hated Catholics and liberals. It also includes people within their own ‘circle’ with whom they disagree. To belong to this ever shrinking circle becomes the object they strive for.
In rationalizing that Christians who don’t agree with you are all “compromisers,” they assume that is the indicator of true spirituality.
They truly believe they are superior. This theological “rigidity” is more important than all other factors. And sadly, there is a trail of broken relationships in their past that is blamed on the actions of the people they “separated” from. Tragically, these broken relationships include family members and former friends.
This completely went against how I was raised by my parents. We did not abandon family and friends based on disagreements or world-view. Jesus taught us to love one another, not to pick and choose whom we love.
I believe one of the reasons fundamental Baptists think this way has to do with living in a fantasy world of their own making. They look to a reality that never existed, and hope for a Utopia that never will exist. When struck by the fact that it does not, it destroys their illusions and they lapse into cynicism and depression. They deal with this by altering reality through 'separation' from whatever or whoever is not like themselves and an end-times fairy tale which allows them to press on in world that does not accept them.
“Fellowshipping” with a group who truly believe they are better than others can be a surreal experience. It leads logically to exclusion based on reasons that hardly fit into their “Biblical world-view”. Many times it is based on race, class, education, and sex.
The sad part is, the longer one “fellowships” with fundamentalists, “separation” from them becomes a relief.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 980 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 04:07 am |
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 No matter how hard they try not to, Protestants, especially their evangelical denominations or non-denom churches are always headed back to that garage called schism where they keep trying to get that square wheel to roll.
You don't have to be a non-elitist to know that baby won't roll. But somehow the Protestants haven't gotten the message during the past five centuries.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 980 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:24 pm |
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On a more serious "angle" to this issue of elitism and fundamentalism within Protestantism, this is a curious thread only because of most of the elitism I've encountered coming from Protestants has been of the academically and politically snobbish strains.
They can be just as nasty to their own as they are to non-Protestants, (especially Catholics and Jews.) This particularly nasty form of Northeastern/New England-bred form of religious, social, economic, and yes, even ethnic bigotry has plagued this country before its inception. and was a major contributing factor to the Civil War (Kevin Phillips, "The Cousins' Wars"...hope I got that right.)
Nowadays they (Northeastern Protestants) still look down on their fellow (Southern) Protestants--many, if not most, still claiming Scotch-Irish ancestry--as rubes, proles and country bumpkins. It's shameless and a sorry spectacle. Unfortunately, we Catholics get our licks in too for different reasons, but they still have the same stinging effect on these proud and mostly mountain folks. I don't mind some good natured give and take, but when it becomes an understated, and semi-official attitude circulating amongst a group of very well protected people through the old WASP network of frats, clubs, and family legacy admissions...look out for bad things to happen for which the electorate often has no say in shaping until it's too late.
As for the more official holier and purer to the truth than thou" approach in foreign policy-making, read "The Arabists" about the very pro-WASP old school ties entangling Amherst and Williams Colleges who were largely responsible for the founding of the American College in Beirut. And these old school ties still call a lot of shots within the State Department, notwithstanding Jimmy Carter's constant whine about some "Jewish influence." This isn't saying I'd like to see the old crowd replaced by the ultra fundy Protestants (with increasing numbers of Catholics ???) getting involved with this Christian Zionism, a dangerous mix of zealotry and imperialism if I ever saw one.
[We need a much more thorough housecleaning than a merely replacing one elitist bunch of bananas with another elitist bunch of oranges. But don't count on this to happen with either of the two nominees.]
We Catholics are not perfect by any means and we have to humbly admit it when necessary. In many respects, we've become just as much an integral part of the ruling elite in certain areas. On the other hand, we shouldn't refrain from pointing it out when necessary if only to save us from more debacles like Iraq where a curious blend of ultra fundies, a blue-blood, albeit born again president with a strong evangelical bent, (who, may even convert to Catholicism), surrounded by pro-Zionist armchair-Caesars lacking any sense of moral responsibility to the parents of American and Israeli children who'll get stuck fighting and dying while they remain far from the fields of battle; safely esconced in their respective think tanks in Washington, DC. and "fighting" their causes in our leading periodicals.
Sunday morning slights and disagreements, and constant squabbles within the local churches are one thing resulting from religiously fueled elitism: watching your spouse or kid come back in a box, or physically or psychologically maimed for life is another beast entirely. There aren't any Catholic or Protestant tear ducts: they're all the same.
Sorry for my rant, but this issue (and its "related cousins") in particular, has been sticking in my craw for quite some time.Last edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:36 pm by Steven Barrett
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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MitchyMitch
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 93 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 30th, 2008 08:29 pm |
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I was IFB all my life - educated in IFB schools and spent a semester at Pensacola Christian College. Went to SBC churches prior to my Catholic conversion.
Independent Fundamentalist Baptists do not consider themselves Protestants, but rather, the New Testament Church. Protestantism is as bad as Catholicism, to the IFB, because some Catholic practices such as paedo-baptism are practiced in them. IFB also criticizes movements around men - Lutheranism, Calvinism.
Separation is key to the IFB'ist. Don't counsel, don't pray with, don't be influenced by those that aren't independent fundamentalists.
It really is sad. Jesus founded and proclaimed a Church that would prevail even against the gates of Hell. Disunity of the Church is one thing, but the walls of separation smacks of the spiritual warlord.
The fruits of the spirit does not include this kind of fighting. The fighting isn't just aimed at Catholics and Protestants, but at inner-denominational levels as well. My old school Pensacola Christian College has actually criticized Bob Jones University for being too liberal. Peter Ruckman, KJV-only defender, has turned off many KJV-only people because of his offensive writings. Mini-cults have developed around Baptist colleges and universities, and the rhetoric aimed at each other is another example of warlord-ism. There is even a sub-cult of IFB called "Landmarkism" (aka: Baptist-Briders) which seeks to unify Baptists and those denominations that closely resemble the Baptist Church in creed and practice under the idea that the Baptist Church is the actual "Bride of Christ" whose members will enjoy special prominence in heaven as other "saved" members of other denominations will be their servants.
When Fundamentalist Baptists complain about my faith, I often remark that the Jesuits are not in spiritual warfare with the Dominicans, but theirs is a shattered and divisive denomination, of which I saw virtually no fruit of the Spirit in my 20-years as a Baptist, as practiced by normal laymen (a few exceptions - God bless Mr. Craig, who taught me Bible, and God rest his soul.)
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
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