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Do Catholics use a concordance?

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JillD
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:19 pm

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I used to use mine all the time. You know, you think of a few words of some verse, but can't remember where it is, so you look it up in the concordance. It was a pretty standard Bible study tool in my pre-Catholic days, but I never hear a Catholic use the word much less the text. Is it a common tool?

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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:25 pm

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It sure is for me and any Catholic who does a lot of Bible study or biblical apologetics.

I use the RSV Bible, which is similar to the KJV (traditionally the best concordances are Young's and Strong's, which use KJV).

But there are updated versions of those and multiple translation concordances. I also have one for the NRSV. Now, online search tools, are threatening to make the old book concordances obsolete or far more difficult and time-consuming to use, at any rate.

Last edited on Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:26 pm by Dave Armstrong

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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 10:30 pm

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Jill, I have found that Catholics who read the Bible regularly are also interested in acquiring the study tools. When we celebrated my confirmation, I gave my two mentors a desktop concordance. One lady already had a very large one. The second lady had been expressing an interest in getting her first concordance. Both seemed delighted with the gift.

The online helps are so convenient also.

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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 12:27 am

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Jill, I much prefer to use my computer to thumbing through a concordance. I have the RSV-CE and a good number of other documents, such as scripture commentaries, the Compendium of the Catechism and the works of St. John of the Cross, right on my computer. It’s far faster and easier than a book. With the database program I use, I can get linguistic implications such as word frequency and documents of similar content, as well as boolean searches, all ranked by relevance or in alphabetical order, as I prefer.

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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 03:39 am

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Well, that's good to hear! We start a Bible study next week (using Steve Ray's "Footprints of God" series) and I was getting worried that maybe using a concordance was too Protestant. I do get that said to me sometimes. Yep, when I think of a passage of Scripture that would really illuminate whatever is being spoken of, I've had Catholics tell me that "we don't proof text." I'm not sure I understand that. I figured that maybe using a concordance would be considered 'proof-texting.'

In our RCIA class - I'm a sponsor this year for my buddy Suzanne! - the speakers almost NEVER refer to Scripture passages nor do they ask the class to open up their Bibles to take a look. I don't get it. Is that typical??

Jill

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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 04:21 am

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When I think of a passage of Scripture that would really illuminate whatever is being spoken of, I've had Catholics tell me that "we don't proof text." I'm not sure I understand that. I figured that maybe using a concordance would be considered 'proof-texting.'
Not at all, Jill. Using a concordance just finds what you are looking for so you don’t have to page through the bible hoping to rediscover what you saw a while back. As I explained, I use the computer in much the same way. I almost always know what I’m looking for, and the search engine is just a quick and convenient way of getting there. On the rare occasion when I need to fish for something, I can rely on the program’s artificial intelligence to suggest appropriate verses.

In our RCIA class… the speakers almost NEVER refer to Scripture passages nor do they ask the class to open up their Bibles to take a look. I don't get it. Is that typical??
There are no ex-Protestants in the class, right? Unfortunately, the feedback I get here on the forum indicates that this experience is common.

David

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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 06:51 pm

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Unfortunately, Catholics have tended to not learn the Bible nearly enough, while Protestants have the opposite shortcoming: they know next to nothing about tradition.

Anyone who reads the Fathers or Aquinas or most of the great teachers of the Church (not to mention papal encyclicals in our time and Vatican II) can't fail to see that these writings are soaked in Scripture. It's not at all like Scripture is somehow an "uncatholic" thing and the sole province of Protestants. Many of them assume this, but don't be fooled by it!

Lack of knowledge of the Bible is a great problem among Catholics today. That's why I always say that I'm very grateful for my evangelical background because it taught me the Bible itself and to love the Bible. I think that is a great asset to bring with one into the Catholic Church, and you can see that emphasis in my work, in trying to show that Catholicism is truly a far more "biblical" faith than Protestantism, when all is said and done.

Perhaps it is one reason, also, that converts are disproportionately doing published apologetics in the Catholic world, though there are many notable exceptions (e.g., Keating, Madrid, Stravinskas) and there are also the "reverts" who once were Catholic (e.g., Grodi, Kresta).

As for proof-texting, that is a problem not in and of itself, but when passages are taken out of context and passed through a Protestant filter (of whatever stripe) and made to "prove" something they really don't prove. But biblical proofs can be and are massively used by Catholics, in a better way: not removed from immediate textual context or from the thought of the entire Bible and of historic Christian theology. That's the difference, though I must necessarily generalize, and there are, of course, many many fine Protestant exegetes who don't exhibit this deficiency. I'm referring mostly to the average Protestant, not the scholars.

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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 09:21 pm

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Dave Armstrong wrote:
As for proof-texting, that is a problem not in and of itself, but when passages are taken out of context and passed through a Protestant filter (of whatever stripe) and made to "prove" something they really don't prove. But biblical proofs can be and are massively used by Catholics, in a better way: not removed from immediate textual context or from the thought of the entire Bible and of historic Christian theology. That's the difference, though I must necessarily generalize, and there are, of course, many many fine Protestant exegetes who don't exhibit this deficiency. I'm referring mostly to the average Protestant, not the scholars.

I've wondered if my friends who disdain "proof texting" do so as a way to justify their relative unfamiliarity with Scripture. Perhaps?? I'll have to take the conversation one step further the next time I hear that.

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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 09:39 pm

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I think that does happen in the case of some Catholics (though there is legitimate gripe with Protestants who abuse the practice). Some may feel inadequate about their own biblical ignorance, and rather than getting to work and learning the Bible as they should, and as the Church encourages them to do, they'd rather frown upon others who know the Bible better.

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Posted: Sat Jan 12th, 2008 12:42 am

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Dave Armstrong wrote: I think that does happen in the case of some Catholics (though there is legitimate gripe with Protestants who abuse the practice). Some may feel inadequate about their own biblical ignorance, and rather than getting to work and learning the Bible as they should, and as the Church encourages them to do, they'd rather frown upon others who know the Bible better.
I'm not sure I can agree. The idea of "proof-texting" implies (at least to us scripture-ignorant Catholics) taking a verse or passage of scripture to prove something; as Catholics those of us who know our faith understand that no single verse or passage can properly explain a faith concept. I think Catholics who are versed in scripture reject the concept of proof-texting (at least as I understand it) as an inadequate concept that fails to bring in the total picture of Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium, in upholding the truth that underlies the faith.

I believe I am well-versed in my faith, but I have difficulty quoting chapter and verse. That was never stressed to me. I'm not sure it's that important that I know where to find something in scripture. I know the truth that underlies my faith, and I know where to find the sacraments and especially the Eucharist. Protestants tend to emphasize scripture because that is all they have; as a cradle Catholic, my faith has always been based on the sacraments and especially on the Eucharist. I don't need scripture to tell me it is the Precious Body and Precious Blood of my Savior. I have never had reason to doubt.

I don't disagree that there are too many Catholics who are ignorant of scripture, but they are not likely to understand the phrase "proof-texting" anyway. I'm not even sure I understand it; it is not a Catholic expression. Yes, they should know scripture better, but most Catholics understand scripture much better than they think they do; they just don't know chapter/verse designations. Ask them about a passage, and chances are they will know the story and the message, they just won't know where to find it. I know the scriptures rather well, but even I have difficulty finding something when I need it.

As a personal example, excluding my own studies, I have heard the scriptures read in church more than a dozen times since the revision of the Lectionary. Most Catholics of my age fall into the same category. We know scripture. We just don't look it up in the bible so we're not that familiar with chapter and verse designations. And we don't do proof-texting because we realize that is only a part of the overall understanding of the faith.

It's almost a cultural difference. Protestants tend to use their bibles for Sunday readings. They have to look it up, because they never know what will be this Sunday's reading. I know years in advance. It's printed in my missalette. The chapter and verse is much less important than the message it contains, and that's the part I know.

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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 06:45 pm

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I pretty much agree with all this, but it is undeniable that, as a generalization, Catholics know the Bible less than Protestants. Now, the latter may often use many wrong "prooftexts" and interpret wrongly, according to an erroneous template, etc., but they are more familiar with the Bible. That is because it is all they have, yes, but it is still scandalous that Catholics do not do more Bible-reading on their own. The Church encourages this; we are not to get by simply by the readings in the Mass.

My previous statement in this thread was applied only to "some Catholics" . . . "some may" . . . it was a speculation. But I stand by my broad statements about widespread Catholic biblical illiteracy.

Last edited on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 06:47 pm by Dave Armstrong

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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 08:07 pm

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Dave Armstrong wrote: I pretty much agree with all this, but it is undeniable that, as a generalization, Catholics know the Bible less than Protestants. Now, the latter may often use many wrong "prooftexts" and interpret wrongly, according to an erroneous template, etc., but they are more familiar with the Bible. That is because it is all they have.

I take a little bit of exception to this, which ties in with the topic of this thread, the Catholic use of concordances. What I have found is that many Protestant/Catholic conversations follow the model of a passage from "Fiddler on the Roof" Tevye (the lead) says at one point "As the good book says, when a poor man eats a chicken, one of them is sick." The Rabbi's son Mendel (played by my brother in our production of it) responds with "Where does the good book say that?" and Tevye responds with "Well, it doesn't say that exactly, but somewhere there is something about a chicken."

In my experience most Catholics who attend mass every Sunday are soaked in scripture, but they flounder with the question "Where is that in the bible" because they are used to having it read to them, not looking it up for themselves. I find that if you put a concordance in their hands, they know exactly what to look for (as they have heard the same passages at least once every 3 years for all of their life) and can respond quite well

The problem is, one conversation, one time, where the Catholic responds to a Protestant objections with an almost verbatim quote from scripture, elicits the standard attack "where is that in the bible":X. The Catholic, feels like they are being attacked personally (which they are) for the Protestant is quite often conveying the sense that "I will presume you are a liar untill and unless you can demonstrate what you say with proof". The Catholic then retreats from the attack, never to attempt another apologetic argument again.

The solution? Listen to John Martinoni's "Apologetics for the Scripturally Challenged" talk, available for free from his web site here.

... but it is still scandalous that Catholics do not do more Bible-reading on their own. The Church encourages this; we are not to get by simply by the readings in the Mass.

100% agreed

Regards Doc

Edited to fix up link

Last edited on Mon Jan 14th, 2008 09:18 pm by DrDave

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 03:44 am

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I've used http://www.biblegateway.com in the past to find verses, but it doesn't have much of a selection of Catholic Bibles. I think it only has the Douay-Rheims. I don't suppose the RSV-CE or even the NAB are out there, are they??

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 01:36 pm

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RSV-CE is available here.

NAB is available here and here.

The Biblia Clerus site was also providing both, but it is currently down. Since the site is under construction, we can expect such periodic interruptions for some time to come.

David

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 03:18 pm

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David W. Emery wrote: RSV-CE is available here.

NAB is available here and here.

Hi David,

Hmmm.... I'm looking for an online concordance, not an online Bible; ya know, put in a word like "rest" and it comes up with all the verses that have "rest" in them. Those links won't work for that, will they?? That Bible Gateway site will do that, but doesn't have many Catholic Bibles in its databank.

Thanks for your help!

Jill

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 07:58 pm

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CajunRick wrote:
I believe I am well-versed in my faith, but I have difficulty quoting chapter and verse. That was never stressed to me. I'm not sure it's that important that I know where to find something in scripture.
I'm listening to John Martignoni right now and thinking about the fact that it could be very important and helpful to know where a passage comes from. He's discussing the Rapture in Revelation. If you just quote a verse from Rev and don't know where it comes from and don't realize how "poetic" Rev is, it might be easy to believe that it's to be taken literally.

Or in Corinthians where Paul tells women to keep their heads covered, without knowing the letter is addressed to the sin-soaked society at Corinth and knowing that immoral women flaunted their hair, one would be tempted to take that literalistically and feel that hair covering is mandatory.

The context of a passage within a larger work is important. You surely do know context, Rick, but a lot of others might not.

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 08:16 pm

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JillD wrote: The context of a passage within a larger work is important. You surely do know context, Rick, but a lot of others might not.
I agree, Jill. I have the availability of tools that will help me find passages when I need to so I can read them in context, and the context is critical. However, I don't think it's as important that I know the chapter and verse if I know how to find it.

Catholics in general know scripture quite well; what most don't know is the mechanics of how scripture is laid out, how to read it, how to place it in context, and how to apply it to apologetics arguments. As a Church we need to stress scripture more, which is why this year's bishop's synod will be devoted to scripture.

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 08:54 pm

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Here is a link that I use, for the RSV. It includes the Deuterocanon too.

If you go to the bottom there are several search engines. This functions as a concordance. You can look for more than one word that may appear together too, which the old book Concordances do not do. I've saved myself a ton of time and work in using these features during the course of various of my research projects.

The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge is a concordance of phrases. It's available online too.

So is Nave's Topical Bible, and A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the NT (if you want a linguistic aid).

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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 10:41 pm

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JillD wrote:I'm looking for an online concordance, not an online Bible.
Quite true, and I was aware of that. However, I gave all known instances of online bibles in the versions you were interested in. You can understand, then, why I built my own.

I’ve used the University of Michigan’s RSV, cited by Dave A., and also the one on the University of Virginia site, but both of these are the Protestant version (not containing the Catholic revisions in the New Testament), and the UMich’s inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books does not change this, since that version also includes works that are truly apocryphal, such as the Prayer of Manasses.

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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 12:36 am

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It's not an online bible, but E-Sword is a free, downloadable bible program that can include several major bible versions including the Douay-Rheims and the KJV with apocrypha, as well as the RSV, the original 1611 King James (with the deuterocanonicals), the NIV, and many more. The program is free and so are most of the bible downloads. It also includes commentaries and concordances (although I don't think any are Catholic versions) as well as bibles in Greek, Hebrew, Latin (Racaela, are you reading this?), and many other languages. Also available are the Good News Bible, the CEV, NASB, ASV, NKJV, New Living Translation, the Septuagint (in Greek), the Jewish Bible, the Bishop's Bible of 1568 and Geneva Bible of 1587 (both with deuterocanonicals) and a whole lot more.

Specifically Catholic bibles newer than the Douay-Rheims, such as the NAB and the RSV-CE, are not available.

The program also makes available the KJV with the Strong's Concordance, Martin Luther's original German translation, and a lot of other historical bibles, dictionaries, commentaries, etc. You do have to download and install them on your own computer. Donations are requested but not required.

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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 02:24 am

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I didn't realize Strong's Concordance was online. I just discovered it. It also includes Hebrew and Greek lexicons.

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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:30 am

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Why don't Catholics know the Bible as well as Protestants?

The average Protestant may only refer to the Bible while [practicing] Catholics have much more to read: the lives of the Saints, the Desert Fathers, the Early Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, catechisms, encyclicals and writings of the Magisterium... on and on. The Bible is one part of the big compendium of tradition and teaching. Not only should passages in the Bible be read in context, the whole Bible should be taken in context of this richness. If we had just ONE authority to read, Catholics might be better at the Bible too.

I did learn my way around the Bible in the third grade from a Baptist minister's wife that used to visit us. [boy those were the days, huh? we also used to sing "We are Climbing Jacob's Ladder" - try doing that in a grade school today.]

Rick said it well, the serious Catholics do know Scripture pretty well but aren't as good at quoting chapter and verse.

The Old pre-Vatican II Mass had more Scripture quotes in it than the present Mass so we used to get even more Scripture back in the day. Almost all of the Old Mass prayers were quotes of Old Testament, New Testament and the Psalms. Thumbing through an old missal, you'll find an amazing amount of Scripture throughout the Masses. Us old fogeys are familiar with many Bible stories, we just aren’t that good at telling you where in the Bible it is. Today's New Mass goes through a full 3 year cycle of Epistles and Gospels. There are definitely passages I hear at the New Mass that I never before heard. Yea, we get 'soaked' with Scripture at Mass. More than once I've gone home after hearing a quote to look it up and re-read it, pondering its meaning.

Catholics I know that need Scripture quotes use Strong's which in my opinion used to be the best concordance. The unfortunate part of this is that this lacks the 10 missing books of the Catholic Bible, so good luck looking up references to praying for the dead. I like to be able to thumb through pages of a book. But I lately do as David suggests and go online and search on a phrase in an online Bible. The computer is waaaay easier.

I have no clue what "proof texting" is. If anybody asked me to do it, I'd probably respond with a funny look. HUH? Maybe the response you are getting to that question Jill is better described as confusion!

By the way, thanks for all the links everybody put up in this posting. I will definitely use these!

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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:59 am

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Tina in Ashburn wrote: I have no clue what "proof texting" is.
Which only proves that you, like me, are a cradle Catholic! I don't know what it is either, but it doesn't stop me from using the term!

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