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amla
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Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2007 08:11 pm |
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Hello,
I was watching The Gospel of Matthew show hosted by Dr. Tim Gray on EWTN. He talked about how Matthew 27, 46 "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"? and how it was tied to Psalms 22. I tried to explain this to my Protestant husband later in the day and I couldn't reiterate what Dr. Gray had said....my husband said it meant that God had to turn his back on Jesus during that time because he can not look upon sin and he has to be separate from sin. He says God and Jesus were separate at this time. Is this the Catholic understanding too?
Thank you for any help.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2007 09:45 pm |
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Yes, Ang, Psalm 22 is cited by Jesus from the cross. If you read the entire psalm, you will see that while it begins in desolation — depicting very graphically what it is like to be crucified — it does not end there. Instead, it gradually turns towards optimism and a sense of victory. Verses 23–24: “You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel! For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.” And it gets even better in verses 30–31: “Posterity shall serve him [God]; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation, and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.” Jesus’ sacrifice therefore benefits both himself and those for whom he died.
There are numerous details in the psalm that relate to what happened that day in Jerusalem and in the days following, so it makes sense to ponder them individually. This is a good meditation for Lent and Holy Week.
But what about what your husband said? Did God “turn his back” on Jesus that day? Was he looking upon sin when he looked at Jesus? Were God and Jesus “separate” at that time? The Catholic understanding is No, No and No.
Why? Because Jesus Christ is God incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity become man. If the person we know as Jesus is both God and man, how could God and Jesus be “separate”? And if Jesus is God, how is it that God the Father could “turn his back” on him? On the contrary: the Father and the Son are eternally inseparable. Their mutual love is the Holy Spirit.
What Jesus did was pleasing to the Father, just as all his acts are pleasing to Him (John 8:29). How then could the Father see him as “sin”? Yes, Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world and obeyed the Father in offering himself as “a pleasing oblation,” but never as a reprobate, or he could not then take his seat “at the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:12). Furthermore, through his sacrifice on the cross, he was made perfect through obedience (Hebrews 5:8–9). This is why Psalm 22 ends on such a joyous and victorious note.
David
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amla
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Posted: Sun Mar 11th, 2007 11:16 pm |
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Hello,
Thank you for the reply. It makes sense to me, but my husband asks more questions....he asks why would Jesus say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" if Jesus didn't feel like God had turned his back on him? And he asks why is this the only place in scriputure where Jesus does not use the word Father?
Thank you again for your time and information.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2007 12:20 am |
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amla wrote:
My husband asks more questions....he asks why would Jesus say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" if Jesus didn't feel like God had turned his back on him? And he asks why is this the only place in scriputure where Jesus does not use the word Father?
He said this because he was being tortured to death, Ang. The pain, the exhaustion, the loss of blood, the thirst, the asphyxiation — all the result of crucifixion — left him hovering near death. His human life was being overcome and destroyed. It is in this sense that God “abandoned” him.
It is not true, however, that God had really left him. Because if He did that, Jesus’ human nature would cease to exist, leaving only his divinity, which is uncreated. And this could not be, for it would mean that Jesus’ human nature did not really die, but simply ceased to exist. We would have no sacrifice on our behalf, and we would therefore still be in our sins. So God had to stay the course, just as Jesus did, to save the human race.
If we truly believe that Jesus was both true God and true man, as it is handed down to us in the ancient Nicene Creed, there can be no question of God the Son forsaking his human nature. He assumed that nature, and he had to die according to that nature in order to accomplish the mission assigned to him by his Father. This is something that our human minds cannot completely fathom, but it is our belief from the earliest times. The only other route is to follow the fourth century Arian heresy, which maintained that Jesus was really just an ordinary man and not God at all. But how would that save anyone? For no one but God can save; yet what is not assumed is not saved. So our Savior had to be both God and man united in a single divine Person.
David
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2007 08:00 am |
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Ang, I need to do one more thing with the points I have made, and that is to tie everything together and show how it answers your husband’s objections.
Your husband is following the common Evangelical practice of building a theology based on a single verse of scripture. The Catholic approach is much more comprehensive. It looks not only at the individual verse, but at the entire context and all the parallel passages in the Gospels, plus the related passages in the Old and New Testaments (especially Psalm 22, the passages on the high priesthood of Christ in the Epistle to the Hebrews, and the numerous biblical affirmations of Christ’s divinity), and then adds in the fruit of two thousand years of doctrinal and practical tradition and theological thought and draws all this together to assure a harmonious whole, a consistent theology and a congruent faith.
What I have answered to your husband’s question, “Why would Jesus say, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ if he did not believe that God had ‘turned his back on him’?” is this: He did indeed have this feeling in his human nature, but in his divine nature, he knew that neither he, as a divine person, nor his Father, had abandoned his human nature.
Jesus’ human nature cried out in its agony; this is to be expected. His divine nature, however, did not “turn its back” on that human nature, but stayed with it until the end. If it had been otherwise, the ancient heresies, such as Arianism, Nestorianism and even Islam would have been correct when they assumed that the Person of the Godhead was not essential to the man Jesus of Nazareth, and that the Godhead or “Christhood” departed from him as he hung on the cross and died. (Islam goes so far as to deny that Jesus of Nazareth was the actual man crucified, so as to be able also to deny his resurrection.)
Basically, your husband’s theology denies the divinity of Jesus Christ and his essential union with the Father (cf. John 10:30, 17:11) by assuming that “God” is a separate entity from “Jesus Christ.” As I have stated, there is in this no possibility that the human race is saved from its sins. Without the incarnation (God taking on a human nature in addition to his own divine nature) and the resulting hypostatic union (the union of these two natures in a single divine Person), the necessary conditions (of divine power and human nature in the priest-victim who liberates mankind from its sins) are not fulfilled.
Why is this the only place in scripture where Jesus does not use the word Father?
My argument above is that God’s abandonment is a subjective impression, not an objective fact. The medical facts of crucifixion explain this sufficiently. As stated above, Jesus is speaking from the point of view of his human nature alone. This is possible only because he is dying and at this point, as man, everything is blurred. He is not fully aware of his essential union with the Father.
If your husband has ever suffered severe trauma or stress, he knows how one’s overall awareness can be restricted by it. The senses and brain are not able to provide him with full awareness due to a breakdown in sensory communication and cognitive ability as the body ceases to function. My wife suffers from Alzheimer’s disease, a condition that causes damage to the brain, and I have seen the same thing happening in her case. She is no longer aware of many things, not only externally through the senses, but also internally through cerebral function. Her self awareness and “presence of mind” are greatly reduced.
Furthermore, Jesus is reciting scripture, indicating that it is being fulfilled. The early Christian writers make this point abundantly clear. It is for this reason that the entire psalm is relevant and should be taken into account, as I have done in my earlier post. To take a single verse out of context is not the Catholic way.
My final point, Ang, is that you should not expect your husband to be convinced by argument alone, especially overnight. This is something he will have to think about for a long time, to reconcile both in his mind and in his heart. Too, conversion, if it comes, requires a great deal more than making a single point. It is the cumulative result of many points recognized and assimilated, and their effect on the human heart. This process can take years, even decades.
This is how divine grace works in most cases: slowly, almost imperceptibly. If you seek your husband’s conversion, you must be patient and pray throughout the long gestation that this process takes. Contrary to the Evangelical idea of conversion as an instantaneous event, the Catholic understanding is that it is the journey of a lifetime. Our goal is heaven; we are given until the day we die to find and gain the entrance.
David
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Mar 12th, 2007 11:07 am |
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Hi Ang-
I have just "come out of" a terrible time in my life where I have wodered why God had abandoned me, left me hopeless and suffereing. I have vried out to Him, "Can't you hear me?" Can't you see my tears?"
All along, I have known He is there, because He loves me and counts every hair on my head. How could a God who is my Father abandon me when I need Him the most? When I am hurting? I know He doesn't, yet it FEELS like it when I am in pain.
One thing to think on, concerning God turning away from Jesus and His "sin", is this... Does your husband think God turns from him? and you? and me? If He really couldn't look on sin, we would all be damned, beause our sin is sin we DO, not just sin we take on for the salvation of the world.
I'm certain God, who loves us so dearly, doesn't turn from me, and I am the biggest sinner of them all, a truly ungrateful child.
Love and peace, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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beachmoss
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Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 12:32 am |
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| David, as always your reply is very well written. I think I understand all you are saying. This passage was once explained very simply to me that the Jews gathered around Jesus would be mindful of the Psalm and He merely stated the first line to make them recall the entire Psalm. I know this is very simplistic, but in my view it works. Before I heard that explanation I always thought the human side of Jesus was crying out and it never really made sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand your explanation; however, I'm still unsure if this is the correct reading of this passage. Is it possible that Jesus cried out as His Divine spirit left for Heaven and His human body fell into death? I know I'm rambling. Am I making any sense?
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 04:57 pm |
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To David or Anyone who can comment:
I am wondering how the verse in II Corinthians 5:21 applies to this topic. It says, "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." NKJV
Is this verse saying that Jesus through taking the sins of the world upon Himself actually became sin? Since Jesus was a perfect, spotless Lamb, the Lamb worthy to be slain, how could He become sin? It almost sounds like this verse is saying that He became sinful, but of course I know that isn't true, but could be misconstrued to mean that.
I do think that Evangelicals and Catholics look at our Lord's death on the cross differently, but I'm not sure of the specifics. Perhaps someone who knows what I am talking about could elaborate on this. I too, have always believed that God turned His face away from Christ on the cross. But I don't think that this means in any way that God rejected Christ. I have always understood that God turning His face away from Christ while He was dying on the cross had to do with the fact that God cannot look upon sin directly. Is this an accurate understanding of scripture?
I look forward to any and all comments. Thanks.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Mar 14th, 2007 11:35 pm |
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beachmoss wrote:This passage was once explained very simply to me that the Jews gathered around Jesus would be mindful of the Psalm and He merely stated the first line to make them recall the entire Psalm.
This is what several of the Fathers of the Church (the early Christian writers) have stated. The reference is to a rabbinic practice of referencing parts of the bible by citing important verses (long before chapter and verse references were invented in the 15th century AD). The rabbi’s audience would know by memory of repeated reading or hearing the context and the subject matter.
My own experience is often the same when someone cites a bible verse. I will usually recall the whole passage, sometimes word for word. So it does work. And you are correct in your understanding.
Is it possible that Jesus cried out as His Divine spirit left for Heaven and His human body fell into death?
Matthew 27:50 says: “And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.” It doesn’t say that this was an intelligible utterance; one would not expect it to be, considering this was his dying breath. However, Luke 23:46 puts it this way: “Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!’ And having said this he breathed his last.” This should leave no doubt as to what actually happened at the moment of his death.
Factual note: Jesus did not depart directly for heaven from the cross. As we are reminded in the creed, “he descended into the realm of the dead,” for he was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:18–19). So we accept that Jesus first descended to sheol (hades, the abode of the dead, the Limbo of the Fathers) to announce the liberation of those who had been waiting for heaven’s gates to be opened. This is why “the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many” (Matthew 27:52–53). Notice that this did not happen until after the resurrection. Jesus then sojourned on earth another 40 days, teaching the disciples. Only at this point did he ascend into heaven.
David
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 12:50 am |
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2 Corinthians 5:20–6:1:
So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.
Darlene wrote:Is this verse saying that Jesus through taking the sins of the world upon Himself actually became sin? Since Jesus was a perfect, spotless Lamb, the Lamb worthy to be slain, how could He become sin? It almost sounds like this verse is saying that He became sinful, but of course I know that isn't true, but could be misconstrued to mean that.
You see how easy it is to pervert scripture. This is why an authoritative Church is so important.
From the Navarre Bible Commentary:“He made him to be sin”: obviously St. Paul does not mean that Christ was guilty of sin; he does not say “to be a sinner” but “to be sin”. “Christ had no sin,” St. Augustine says; “he bore sins, but he did not commit them” (Enarrationes in Psalmos, 68, 1, 10).
According to the rite of atoning sacrifices (cf. Lev. 4:24; 5:9; Num. 19:9; Mic. 6:7; Ps. 40:7) the word “sin”, corresponding to the Hebrew asham, refers to the actual act of sacrifice or to the victim being offered. Therefore, this phrase means “he made him a victim for sin” or “a sacrifice for sin”. It should be remembered that in the Old Testament nothing unclean or blemished could be offered to God; the offering of an unblemished animal obtained God’s pardon for the transgression which one wanted to expiate. Since Jesus was the most perfect of victims offered for us, he made full atonement for all sins. In the Letter to the Hebrews, when comparing Christ’s sacrifice with that of the priests of the Old Testament, it is expressly stated that “every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified” (Heb. 10:11–14).
This concentrated sentence also echoes the Isaiah prophecy about the sacrifice of the Servant of Yahweh; Christ, the head of the human race, makes men sharers in the grace and glory he achieved through his sufferings: “upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed” (Is. 53:5).
Jesus Christ, burdened with our sins and offering himself on the cross as a sacrifice for them, brought about the Redemption: the Redemption is the supreme example both of God’s justice — which requires atonement befitting the offence — and of his mercy, that mercy which makes him love the world so much that “he gave his only Son” (Jn. 3:16). “In the Passion and Death of Christ — in the fact that the Father did not spare his own Son, but ‘for our sake made him sin’ — absolute justice is expressed, for Christ undergoes the Passion and Cross because of the sins of humanity. This constitutes even a ‘superabundance’ of justice, for the sins of man are ‘compensated for’ by the sacrifice of the Man-God. Nevertheless, this justice, which is properly justice ‘to God’s measure’, springs completely from love, from the love of the Father and of the Son, and completely bears fruit in love. Precisely for this reason the divine justice revealed in the Cross of Christ is ‘to God’s measure’, because it springs from love and is accomplished in love, producing fruits of salvation. The divine dimension of redemption is put into effect not only by bringing justice to bear upon sin, but also by restoring to love that creative power in man thanks to which he once more has access to the fulness of life and holiness that come from God. In this way, redemption involves the revelation of mercy in its fulness” (John Paul II, Dives in misericordia, 7).
I have always understood that God turning His face away from Christ while He was dying on the cross had to do with the fact that God cannot look upon sin directly. Is this an accurate understanding of scripture?
I discussed this in my previous posts. My answer is No, it is not accurate, for the reasons you yourself have given. God can look Satan in the eye, just as he does each one of us, sinners all. Of course he can stare down sin. He is not afraid of anything. It is sin which seeks to run away and hide from God, not the other way around.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 01:13 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Darlene wrote:
I have always understood that God turning His face away from Christ while He was dying on the cross had to do with the fact that God cannot look upon sin directly. Is this an accurate understanding of scripture?
I discussed this in my previous posts. My answer is No, it is not accurate, for the reasons you yourself have given. God can look Satan in the eye, just as he does each one of us, sinners all. Of course he can stare down sin. He is not afraid of anything. It is sin which seeks to run away and hide from God, not the other way around.
I completely agree. As Genesis relates, it is Adam and Eve who hid from God, not the other way around. Adam and Eve committed the sin that condemned all humanity, and yet God had no problem dealing with them.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Juan
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Posted: Thu Mar 15th, 2007 11:42 pm |
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David, as always your reply is very well written. I think I understand all you are saying. This passage was once explained very simply to me that the Jews gathered around Jesus would be mindful of the Psalm and He merely stated the first line to make them recall the entire Psalm. I know this is very simplistic, but in my view it works. Before I heard that explanation I always thought the human side of Jesus was crying out and it never really made sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand your explanation; however, I'm still unsure if this is the correct reading of this passage. Is it possible that Jesus cried out as His Divine spirit left for Heaven and His human body fell into death? I know I'm rambling. Am I making any sense?
Yes, you are making sense. This is the way I understand it as well.
If we meditate on Jesus passion and crucifixion, we see several amazing things. We see that Jesus is tortured and nailed to a cross. Yet we see that Jesus had the peace of mind to consider the prayers of the women who were following His Way of the Cross, and the peace of mind to speak to John and Our Lady and to commend His Spirit to the Father.
There is no question in my mind then, that Jesus also had the peace of mind to give the Jews a hint of His true identity. Psalm 22 is a prophecy of the Messiah as the Suffering Servant. It seems to be the part of the Messiah's coming which they overlooked or disbelieved.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Fri Mar 16th, 2007 12:08 am |
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To David or Anyone who can comment:
Hello Darlene,
I am wondering how the verse in II Corinthians 5:21 applies to this topic. It says, "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." NKJV
Is this verse saying that Jesus through taking the sins of the world upon Himself actually became sin? Since Jesus was a perfect, spotless Lamb, the Lamb worthy to be slain, how could He become sin? It almost sounds like this verse is saying that He became sinful, but of course I know that isn't true, but could be misconstrued to mean that.
You are correct, this verse does not mean that Jesus became sin. Since the Bible also says that Jesus became like us in everyway but sin (Heb 4:16) if this verse meant that Jesus became sin, then the Bible would contradict Itself.
However, the Bible also says that Jesus took on the "likeness" of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3) and thus condemned sin in the flesh. And I think that is what St. Paul means when he says that He became sin for us. In other words, it is another metaphor meaning that Jesus took on human flesh. Obviously, he only took on the "likeness" of sin and not actual sin. And obviously, God the Father accepted the sinless Jesus as payment for our actual sin. Thus, He became sin for us. Capiche?
I do think that Evangelicals and Catholics look at our Lord's death on the cross differently, but I'm not sure of the specifics. Perhaps someone who knows what I am talking about could elaborate on this. I too, have always believed that God turned His face away from Christ on the cross. But I don't think that this means in any way that God rejected Christ. I have always understood that God turning His face away from Christ while He was dying on the cross had to do with the fact that God cannot look upon sin directly. Is this an accurate understanding of scripture?
In my opinion, no.
Unless you believe that Jesus did not want to be Crucified. But Jesus said,
John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Or unless you believe that Jesus couldn't take His life up again:
John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Or unless you believe that Jesus did not die so that we might live:
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jesus' prayer was that He could lay down His life so that we might live. That is why He came on this earth:
John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Therefore, it is very hard for me to believe, that Jesus, on the Cross, was praying to be spared from the very mission which He came to accomplish:
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
I look forward to any and all comments. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Juan
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