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NanaR
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
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| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 01:30 pm |
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Friends:
Last Sunday I was in PA visiting family, and I attended Mass at the local Catholic Church. The priest made a statement during his homily that puzzled me. He said that Jesus ascended to heaven in his flesh and blood body.
I understand that Jesus ascended to heaven as human body and human soul and also as Divine nature. But I thought that there was a measure of difference between a resurrected Glorified body and a flesh and blood body?
If not, what is the meaning of 1 Cor. 15:50-53?
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians15.htm
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
52
in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53
For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.
puzzled,
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 01:43 pm |
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| That statement would puzzle me, also. As I recall, Christ "passed through" a closed door when He met with the group in the upper room after the crucifixion. A flesh body could not do that, could it?
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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Jesus ascended into heaven body and soul, but his body has been transformed. It is still the body of Jesus but now has a new heavenly form. It cannot undergo corruption, and it will never die.
Think of the difference between ice and water and steam. They are all the same substance, but there are significant changes from one form to the next. Steam can pass through some substances in ways that ice cannot, but they are still both water.
As for Jesus in his flesh and blood body passing through a door, we may not know how it happened, but the Lord God who created the heavens and the earth certainly cannot be stopped by a mere door. We cannot place limitations on God; only God can willingly accept limitations. God cannot refuse to forgive sins because God has promised the Church that authority; God cannot refuse to transubstantiate the Eucharist if the proper matter and form are used by a proper minister, because Jesus promised that to us. God cannot break a promise. And that's why (to deviate...) the Covenant of Moses promising salvation to the people of Israel is still in effect. It has been fulfilled in the Covenant of Jesus just as the body of our Savior has been fulfilled by the resurrection into its rightful form.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 03:01 pm |
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Christ's body was glorified. It was not made any less physical or natural, but more spiritual. He was not a ghost, but he was no longer merely flesh and blood. That he had flesh and bones he attests to in Luke 24:39. He ate a piece of fish in front of his disciples! A resurrected body has flesh, bones, blood, hair, nails, teeth, etc. But it also is directly entirely to the will of the spirit, and no longer to its own will.
The Eucharist we partake of is the (glorified) Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ.
Last edited on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 03:03 pm by japhy
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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NanaR
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 149 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 03:04 pm |
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Rick,
I understand what you are saying (I think).
Japhy,
That helps a lot. I had never heard the term "flesh and blood" used to describe the resurrected Jesus. So the scripture in Corinthians means ordinary flesh and blood bodies must be changed or glorified in order to enter heaven -- but they still are flesh and blood bodies?
Ruth
Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand...
Last edited on Thu Oct 11th, 2007 03:08 pm by NanaR
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 03:55 pm |
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NanaR wrote:So the scripture in Corinthians means ordinary flesh and blood bodies must be changed or glorified in order to enter heaven -- but they still are flesh and blood bodies?
1 Corinthians 15:44 states that “It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.” The Church tells us that in the resurrection we will receive back our own bodies, but they will be somehow changed. The theological term commonly used is “glorified body.”
What kind of substance is it? We don’t know; God didn’t tell us this. All we know is that it is the same body — our own body — but its properties are changed. Anything more is mere speculation.
Bottom line: In ordinary parlance, “flesh and blood” body means one’s body as we know it on earth. The resurrected body, however, is different; this is clear from scripture. Therefore, it makes sense to use a different term. Paul refers to it as a “spiritual body,” but this is confusing, an oxymoron. This is why the theologians adopted the phrase “glorified body” instead.
The priest who said that Jesus ascended into heaven in his flesh and blood body was probably trying to impress upon the people that he wasn’t a ghost (a soul without a body), but a real human being, body and soul together. However, he went too far and neglected the theological difference between the earthly body and the changed or glorified body. In the context of his homily, this may be a minor matter. Often we adults do the same thing when we oversimply an explanation to help a child understand something. I certainly would not raise a fuss about it.
David
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 180 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 04:07 pm |
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NanaR wrote: I had never heard the term "flesh and blood" used to describe the resurrected Jesus. So the scripture in Corinthians means ordinary flesh and blood bodies must be changed or glorified in order to enter heaven -- but they still are flesh and blood bodies? In 1 Cor 15:50 (I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.) Paul is speaking of "natural" bodies (cf. 1 Cor 15:46) as "flesh and blood". Our natural (or "physical", as some translations put it) bodies, our flesh and blood, are corruptible and perishable. But our supernatural (or "spiritual") bodies are more than just flesh and blood, but they are real bodies with flesh and blood (as Jesus demonstrated after his resurrection). They are glorified and are no longer natural/physical, but supernatural/spiritual. That doesn't mean they're "spirit bodies" (i.e. ghosts), but that they are bodies that are under the influence of the supernatural (the spirit) rather than the natural (the flesh).
Christ, resurrected and glorified, was "flesh and blood"... and then some! It can be confusing to stop at just "flesh and blood".
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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NanaR
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 149 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 05:49 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: NanaR wrote:So the scripture in Corinthians means ordinary flesh and blood bodies must be changed or glorified in order to enter heaven -- but they still are flesh and blood bodies?
1 Corinthians 15:44 states that “It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.” The Church tells us that in the resurrection we will receive back our own bodies, but they will be somehow changed. The theological term commonly used is “glorified body.”
What kind of substance is it? We don’t know; God didn’t tell us this. All we know is that it is the same body — our own body — but its properties are changed. Anything more is mere speculation.
Bottom line: In ordinary parlance, “flesh and blood” body means one’s body as we know it on earth. The resurrected body, however, is different; this is clear from scripture. Therefore, it makes sense to use a different term. Paul refers to it as a “spiritual body,” but this is confusing, an oxymoron. This is why the theologians adopted the phrase “glorified body” instead.
The priest who said that Jesus ascended into heaven in his flesh and blood body was probably trying to impress upon the people that he wasn’t a ghost (a soul without a body), but a real human being, body and soul together. However, he went too far and neglected the theological difference between the earthly body and the changed or glorified body. In the context of his homily, this may be a minor matter. Often we adults do the same thing when we oversimply an explanation to help a child understand something. I certainly would not raise a fuss about it.
David
David:
I'm certainly not going to "raise a fuss". And yes, I think you have explained what he probably meant.
I'm just really new at this and want to make sure I get my explanations straight. I might have to explain this to somebody else (such as my husband or children), and I want to be able to do so both correctly and understandably.
Thank you :-)
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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