 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
beachmoss
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Simpsonville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 270 |
| First Name: | Beth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic (raised Baptist) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 05:07 pm |
|
I had this discussion yesterday about God revealing Himself to humans. I thought that Adam and Eve were the only humans that were ever allowed to see God's face. A reference was made to Exodus 33:11, which states, "The Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as one man speaks to another." It was after the conversation that I read further in verse 20, "But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives."
Are there any instances where God actually reveals Himself to men? Can anyone give me scripture references that state that God never allowed men to see him? I'm really not good with going straight to a reference. Any help is appreciated.
Beth
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5079 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 07:07 pm |
|
As God is not a physical being, God would not truly have a face, and so no human could ever see it. Humans have been permitted to see manifestations of God (such as Moses' burning bush) or messengers from God (like Gabriel's visit to Mary) but God does not truly possess a physical being.
As the Catechism states:
43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that "between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude"; and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."
So we use terms like "the face of God" to express a reality in human terms that we cannot understand.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1790 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 07:50 pm |
|
Beth, my studies in the mystics, comparing them with the various biblical passages relating “face to face” encounters with God, indicate to me that the use of the phrase in scripture has a variety of contexts and meanings.
The Hebrew term “face” has often the meaning of “presence.” Thus in the psalm, where it says, “Enter his presence with singing,” (Ps. 100:2) the original would read literally, “Come before his face with singing”; and “seek his presence continually” (Ps. 105:2) would be “seek his face.” We need to start, I think, with this concept in mind.
As you say, in one place it is not given to Moses to see God’s “glory,” as he had desired; in this instance, God allowed him to see only his “back” (Exodus 33:23; cf. vv. 18, 20; see also Deuteronomy 5:4, 34:10 and Sirach 45:5). Yet just a few verses earlier, we see that “the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend” (Exodus 33:11).
Yet there are other places in scripture that someone is said to have “seen God face to face.” One example is Jacob in Genesis 12:30. According to Moses himself, the whole people of the Lord habitually saw him face to face, referring specifically to the pillar of cloud/fire as a sign of divine protection (Numbers 14:14). It is prophesied in Ezekiel 20:33–38 that the Lord will “enter into judgment” with the chosen people “face to face,” so as to “purge out the rebels from among you.”
The New Testament, however, has a different viewpoint: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood” (1 Corinthians 13:12), and again, “we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). This can only refer to the beatific vision in heaven.
Regarding Moses, it appears that perhaps early on, Moses was not allowed to see God except a glimpse of his “back,” meaning not fully and substantially. Yet later, Moses did indeed gain this more intimate relationship to the Lord. This accords well with the idea of spiritual progress, but there are difficulties. One difficulty is that it assumes that the various scenes in Exodus are not necessarily placed consecutively in chronological order. Is this acceptable? Modern exegetes generally think it is, but it is not proved beyond a doubt. Another is that it is repeatedly said in the Old Testament that if someone sees God, he will die (cf. Genesis 16:13; 32:30; Exodus 33:20; Deuteronomy 5:24–25; Judges 13:22 — although the references in Genesis refer to angels, the idea prevails). When we come to the New Testament, we will see that death does intervene, but the vision of God takes place in heaven. Therefore it is not the cause of death, but takes place after earthly death.
However, note that there are two distinct situations: when Moses was denied his request, he had asked to see God’s glory, but when he spoke with him face to face, he was enveloped in the divine cloud. Perhaps he was never granted the vision of the Lord’s glory, for this is reserved to the beatific vision in heaven, but had instead been allowed to speak with him in the obscurity of a cloud, as the mystics speak of “knowing God darkly.”
And in the New Testament we see yet another point made by Jesus when he discusses the incarnation: “But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe” (John 6:36) and yet: “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Compare 1 John 4:12: “No man has ever seen God” and John 1:18: “No one has ever seen God” with “He who does evil has not seen God” (3 John 1:11). The point here seems to be that in Jesus’ physical presence there is something more than the physical eye can see. The inner eye of the soul is darkened by sin but enlightened by virtue and justification through Christ’s passion and resurrection. Biblically and liturgically, we are said to die in his death and rise in his resurrection; to be forgiven by his sacrifice and justified by his return to heaven. This spiritual law concerning the eye of the soul is merely an extension of this theme: we see God, even obscurely, only by approaching him in holiness and truth.
Lastly, we should consider what Job says about his earthly plight: “I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another” (Job 19:25–27). Christian tradition holds that this passage presages the resurrection of the body on the last day, after it has been purged of its impurity and dross.
David
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 742 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 17th, 2007 03:33 am |
|
Not sure I am adding anything helpful or in the right context, but I really like Pope Benedicts teaching on Jesus as a the fullfillment of a prophecy promising a prophet greater than Moses in the forward to His book Jesus of Nazareth. I will try to ender this the best I can without simply typing everything the book says. Deuteronomy 18:15 says "The Lord your God will raise up a prophet like me from among you...him shall you heed."
At the books conclusion in Deuteronmy 34 says "and there has not arisen a prophetsince in Israel like Moses...whom the Lord knew face to face."
This points to the fact that Moses leading into the promised land did not equal the deepest meaning of salvation. Israel was still to wairt for a new Moses for the true exodus. He seems to imply that Moses speaking face to face refers to sort of a unique friendship. But the story where he could only see God's back shows that the old covenant was still limited. One could only get so close to God. This implies that the new Moses and bringer of the new covenant will possibly have even a greater intimacy and will be granted what was refused to his predecessor, "a real, immediate vision of the face of God.". He says Jewish and Christian mystics used the Moses text to talk about how close one could come to seeing God in this life.
We see in the opening of the gospel of John "No one has ever seen God; it is the only son, who is nearest to the Father's heart, who has made Him known."
He then mentions all the times Jesus went to be alone and pray. Like Moses he appreciated deep intimacy with God that guided Him. His source was God.
By nature of the incarnation, Jesus becomes one of us and makes human intimacy with god something it never wa before. By sharing in his life and the new posibilities of being a redeemed human creature, human praying has now been transformed by Jesus into something we can share, an act of communicating intimately with the Father as a son.
Because Jesus came as a man and experienced His filial communion with the Father while in our human clothes, He now offers us a deeper possibiliy and ability to share in that unique relationship.
According to John 14:9 he who sees Jesus sees the Father. By following Jesus we live out in our redemption what had been seen as the potential we were created for in God's image.
Not sure, if I did this any justice and I was trying to sum it up faithfully, and I am not sure if it is really relevant to what is being asked, but I really liked it. May we all wait watch and celebrate Christmas and seek that union and intimacy with God that has been made possible by virtue of God becoming one of His creation and giving Himself to it in mystical marriage.
BrianLast edited on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 03:34 am by brian
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1790 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Dec 17th, 2007 09:38 am |
|
Yes, Brian, I think your contribution is significant. Using the Holy Father’s book as your basis, you have provided a solid commentary on the points I was sketching out. They mesh very well, and you make clear some things that I left obscure.
David
|
|
|
Parodyonlife
Member
| Joined: | Mon Jan 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Corning, New York USA |
| Posts: | 113 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | NEW CATHOLIC!!! W( ) ( )T!!! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 12:56 am |
|
CajunRick wrote: As God is not a physical being, God would not truly have a face, and so no human could ever see it. Humans have been permitted to see manifestations of God (such as Moses' burning bush) or messengers from God (like Gabriel's visit to Mary) but God does not truly possess a physical being.
As the Catechism states:
43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that "between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude"; and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."
So we use terms like "the face of God" to express a reality in human terms that we cannot understand.
I think your right. And we are made in his image and likeness so i believe he has arms and legs and a face but not of the type we can comprehend. More spiritual than physical.
____________________
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 08:07 pm |
|
I did some cross-referencing on this question years ago, in 1982 (verses in KJV):
GOD'S APPEARANCES AS A MAN IN THE O.T. (THEOPHANIES)
1) GENESIS 18:1-4 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; (2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw {them}, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, (3) And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: (4) Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: {cf. 18:13,17,22}
2) GENESIS 32:24,30 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day . . . (30) And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. {cf. 35:9-15}
3) EXODUS 24:10-11 And they saw the God of Israel: and {there was} under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in {his} clearness. (11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, . . .
4) ISAIAH 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
5) EZEKIEL 43:6-7 And I heard {him} speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. (7) And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, {neither} they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
6) The "Angel of the Lord"
Furthermore, the "Angel of the Lord" is identified as YHWH/God/The LORD several times in Scripture. Yet, in other instances, his identity is distinguished from God (e.g., 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Kin 19:6-7, 2 Kin 19:35, Dan 3:25,28, 6:23, Zech 1:8-14), or is ambiguous (Num 22:22, Josh 5:13-14). In the following passages this Angel is regarded as God Himself, either directly or inferentially:
7) GENESIS 31:11-13 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, {saying}, Jacob: And I said, Here {am} I. (12) And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle {are} ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. (13) I {am} the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, {and} where thou vowedst a vow unto me: . . .
8) EXODUS 3:2-6 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was {not} consumed. (3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. (4) And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here {am} I. (5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest {is} {holy} ground. (6) Moreover he said, I {am} the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
9) EXODUS 3:14,16 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you . . . (16) Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and {seen} that which is done to you in Egypt:
10) JUDGES 2:1 And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I . . . have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
11) JUDGES 6:12,14 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him, and said unto him, The Lord {is} with thee, thou mighty man of valour . . . (14) And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? {cf. 6:16,20-23}
12) JOSHUA 5:14-15 And he said, Nay; but {as} captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? (15) And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest {is} holy . . .
13) ZECHARIAH 12:8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David {shall be} as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
In Acts 8:26,29, an identification of the Angel of the Lord with the Holy Spirit might be inferred:
14) ACTS 8:26,29 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south . . . (29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. {cf. Gen 16:7-14, 21:17-19, 22:11-18, 31:11-13, Ex 13:21 w/ 14:19, Jud 13:13-22, Zech 3:1-2}
JESUS IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE FATHER
A. God the Father is Invisible, and Can't be Seen
1) EXODUS 33:20,23 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live . . . (23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. {cf. Jud 13:22}
2) JOHN 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time . . .
3) JOHN 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
4) JOHN 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
5) COLOSSIANS 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
6) 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 . . . the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, . . .
7) 1 TIMOTHY 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: . . .
8) 1 JOHN 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time . . .
B. Jesus Reveals, and is the Image of, the Father
1) JOHN 1:18 . . . the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared {him}. {RSV,NIV: "made him known"}
2) JOHN 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
3) JOHN 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (9) Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou {then}, Shew us the Father?
4) 2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 . . . Christ, who is the image of God, . . .
5) COLOSSIANS 1:15 . . . the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
6) HEBREWS 1:3 Who being the brightness of {his} glory, and the express image of his person, . . .
7) REVELATION 22:1,3-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb . . . (3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (4) And they shall see his face; . . .
8) The "Seen"/"Unseen" Paradox
The seeming contradiction of God being "seen" (as in the theophanies above, and in other passages such as Gen 17:1, 33:11, Num 12:7-8, Deut 34:10, Jud 13:22, Is 6:5), and "not seen" (in passages such as Ex 33:20, 1 Tim 6:16, and 1 Jn 4:12), has been explained variously. One can take the position that all or some of the theophanies and appearances of the Angel of the Lord (as God Himself) are pre-incarnate appearances of Christ, which would solve the paradox. The Apostle John (Jn 12:41) appears to interpret Isaiah's vision of God (Is 6:1-8) as precisely such an appearance. Or, it is possible to maintain that God created visual manifestations of Himself which were not identical with Himself. In these instances what is being seen are the effects of God's unmediated presence.
Theophanies, in any event, are not always personal appearances of God. For example, non-personal theophanies include the burning bush (Ex 3:1-6), the pillars of cloud and fire (Ex 13:21-22), the cloud and fire of Mt. Sinai (Ex 24:16-18), and the Shekinah glory cloud (Ex 40:34-38). No one would hold that the non-personal appearances represent a direct experience of God's essence. In the same fashion, the personal theophanies can be considered as manifestations one step removed from the actual Father Himself. But, on the other hand, for those who deny the incarnation of Christ, theophanies do show that the notion of God becoming a man is not altogether incomprehensible or impossible, but rather, somewhat plausible (based strictly on the existence and function of theophanies alone). As such, theophanies might be considered precursors (along with verses such as Is 9:6 and Mic 5:2) of the incarnation of the Messiah Jesus, the Son of God (and literally so, if it is believed that these theophanies are pre-incarnate appearances of Christ).
Whenever God is seen, it must either be in the sense of one of these manifestations, or else a beholding of the Son, Jesus, who reveals the Father, as in the verses directly above. In this way, the passages about the invisible God are explained in a non-contradictory manner. Jesus' role as the "image" (Greek, eikon) of the Father also is harmonious with the biblical trinitarian view of the nature of God, while contrary views encounter insuperable logical problems with many biblical passages that appear at first to be contradictory. Not only in this area, but in hundreds of analogous texts, as illustrated above, the non-trinitarian is hard-pressed to explain rationally the biblical picture of the theology of God (assuming he accepts the validity of the inspired Bible itself). Only trinitarianism can harmonize all the biblical material.
Last edited on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 08:10 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Current time is 05:53 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
