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NanaR
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 07:56 pm |
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I guess I'm just full of questions today...
Is Yahweh a name for the Holy Trinity, or is Yahweh the name of God the Father?
As I investigated the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, I came to the conclusion that Yahweh is a name for the Holy Trinity and not a name for only God the Father. But I am not positive that I am correct in this assumption.
Help?
Pax,
Ruth
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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Hi Ruth,
Good question. Of course for the Jews, Yahweh would refer to basically the equivalent of what Christians believe about God the Father in the Holy Trinity.
God the Son's "earthly" name was Joshua or Yeshua in Hebrew ("Jesus" is a Greek transliteration, as I understand it).
The Holy Spirit does not have another formal name that I am aware of, though there are terms like Helper (Paraclete) used.
Can Jesus be called Yahweh, though? There is a good argument based on NT usage of Kurios ("Lord"), as implying an equation with Yahweh (just as God is called "LORD" throughout the OT: that is, "YHWH").
A Protestant friend of mine, Sam Shamoun (an expert on Christian-Muslim debate and outreach), lays out the case in several exegetical papers (one / two / three). Fascinating stuff!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 12:19 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Can Jesus be called Yahweh, though? There is a good argument based on NT usage of Kurios ("Lord"), as implying an equation with Yahweh (just as God is called "LORD" throughout the OT: that is, "YHWH").
Remember Mark 14:61? Contrast it with Exodus 3:14. We usually use the name Yahweh to refer to the creative aspect of the Godhead, but in fact the Father is the Son who is the Spirit in a unique and mysterious way.
Jesus said "the Father and I are one" and so in the mystery of the Trinity, the three Persons are one God.
Or as the Athanasian Creed puts it:
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the
Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the
father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father
eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three
eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty,
the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three
almighties but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not
three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy
Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are
compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be
both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say,
there be three Gods or three Lords. |
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japhy
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 10:24 am |
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NanaR wrote: Is Yahweh a name for the Holy Trinity, or is Yahweh the name of God the Father? As I investigated the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, I came to the conclusion that Yahweh is a name for the Holy Trinity and not a name for only God the Father. There are several times in the Gospel when Jesus says "I AM". Some translations do this no justice and make it "It is I".
Matt 14:27, Mark 6:50, John 6:20 (Jesus on the water)
John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I AM")
John 18:5-8 (at his arrest)
Last edited on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 10:25 am by japhy
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BeProf
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:45 pm |
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I think it's worth pointing out that Yahweh is only *rendered* as LORD or Jehovah in the tradition of English Translations, it does not mean "Lord."
Yahweh's exact meaning is a bit unclear but it seems to be an elongated intensified form of the word for "I am." It does not mean "I am" in the sense of "I am Ed." It means *I AM* in bold letters 40 feet high. When I was in Bible College, I was taught that it meant, roughly, that "I am eternally self-sufficient in my existence."
Christ used the term to refer to Himself in the New Testament and the quality of God that it speaks of - His eternality - applies equally to all three Persons of the Trinity. For those reasons, I believe Yahweh to be a name applied to the Trinity as a whole and not any one particular Person in it.
So where did "Lord" come from? Adonai. That's means "Lord" and it's the most common word used to refer to God in the Old Testament (since the Jews were hesitant to *ever* say or even write the word Yahweh). The word "Jehovah" in fact came into existence when vowel marks were added to the Hebrew language. Rather than write the actual vowel marks for Yahweh (and thereby tempt the reader to pronounce the Sacred Name, even in his mind), the scribes instead wrote in the vowel markings for adonai. So Yahweh became Yahowah, and in English, Jehovah.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 05:43 pm |
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Hi Rick,
in fact the Father is the Son who is the Spirit in a unique and mysterious way.
I think we need to be very careful in how we express these things. The language above (though I know you didn't intend this) veers closely to expressions of the heresy of Sabellianism, or Modal Monarchianism, that rejected Three Persons and spoke of God in terms of modes.
The Father is not the Son; the son is not the Spirit, etc. This confuses (or even obliterates) the distinction of persons. All three Divine Persons are God, equal in essence, nature, and glory, yet they are still distinguished as three (equal, divine) persons. They can refer to each other as subject and object. The father sends the Son; the Son prays to the Father, etc.
The Athanasian Creed that you cited doesn't say that the Father is the Son. It reiterates in many different ways that all three Persons are equal, and equally God. All three are infinite. All three are eternal and uncreated. All are almighty (omnipotent); all are God and Lord.
But the distinction of Persons is not eliminated: "we are
compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be
both God and Lord."
I think what you were trying to get at is what is known as known as the perichoresis (Greek) or circumincession (Latin). Fr. John A. Hardon. S.J., in his Modern Catholic Dictionary (Doubleday, 1980, 415-416) precisely defines it:
The penetration and indwelling of the three persons reciprocally in one another. In the Greek conception of the Trinity there is an emphasis on the mutual penetration of the three persons, thus bringing out the unity of the divine essence. In the Latin idea . . . the stress is more on the internal processions of the three divine persons. In both traditions, however, the fundamental basis of the Trinitarian perichoresis is the one essence of the three persons in God.
Perichoresis is also specifically applied to the two natures of Christ. Biblical indications of this doctrine can be found in the following passages (RSV):
John 10:30: I and the Father are one.
John 10:38: . . . believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
John 14:9-11: Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me . . .
Note how Jesus maintains the personal distinction by talking about each being "in" the other.
* * * * *
Generally speaking, the "I AM" passages are very relevant to this discussion. I should have thought of that yesterday. Thanks for all the excellent comments!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 05:55 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: The Father is not the Son; the son is not the Spirit, etc. This confuses (or even obliterates) the distinction of persons. All three Divine Persons are God, equal in essence, nature, and glory, yet they are still distinguished as three (equal, divine) persons.
Very true. Which is why this is the central mystery of our faith. Words cannot express the reality. Other words, like "indwells", would have probably been a better choice. It's the mathematician in me that comes out every now and then. 
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 07:02 pm |
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It's the mathematician in me that comes out every now and then.
1+1+1 (Divine Persons) = 1 (God).
Huh??! 
Indeed, it is this mystery that causes many like Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims and Jews and Unitarians and philosophical theists or deists (guys like Thomas Jefferson), to stumble and reject Christianity. They can't figure out how three persons can be one God. But it's because it is ultimately a mystery, as you say. We have to accept the Holy Trinity in faith because that is how God has revealed Himself in Divine Revelation.
I wonder if the above would make more sense if we expressed it thusly?:
1x1x1 (Divine Persons) = 1 (God) 
Then we could argue that the Holy Trinity is indeed in accordance with mathematics and logic!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 11:54 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: 1x1x1 (Divine Persons) = 1 (God)
Then we could argue that the Holy Trinity is indeed in accordance with mathematics and logic!
What so many fail to realize is that God cannot be put into a box. God created the boxes like the time-space continuum, gender roles, etc. God cannot be contained in them. God cannot even be imagined adequately. We can only understand aspects of God.
Mathematics is a manner of expressing the mechanisms that control the universe. It is part of this physical reality; God is not subject to it. In fact, insofar as it describes celestial mechanics, physics, etc., it describes aspects of God our Creator. The same is true of logic, and language, and even our imaginations. We can envision God in any way we wish; the one certain thing is that it will be inadequate.
I used to tell kids when I taught religion that there is only one statement you can make about God that is totally, completely, absolutely true and adequate:
God is.
Or to put it in the first person, as God did in the Book of Exodus:
"I AM".
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leofff
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 01:29 pm |
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| When God said "I Am" he was essentially telling Moses that "I am who I am". Sort of along the same lines of the slapdown delivered to Job, "Who the heck are you to question me?"
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hpj0828
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 02:47 pm |
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The Hebrew name for the Holy Spirit is:
Ruach HaKodesh
Ruach = Spirit
Ha=The
Kodesh = Holy
The Ruach HaKodesh is also associated in Talmudic literature with the Shekhinah glory--that is the manifest presence of God on the earth, as this presence was manifested in the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle of Moses, or in the pillars of cloud and fire which guided the Israelites through the wilderness journey. Sometimes Talmudic rabbis distinguish the Ruach HaKodesh from the Shekhinah, sometimes use the terms interchangably.
Shekhinah means "dwelling". So the Tabernacle is sometimes referred to as the "mishkan" = Heb. for dwelling place--the place where God (as the Shekhinah) dwells.
Blessings!
Henry
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hpj0828
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 03:03 pm |
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NanaR wrote: I guess I'm just full of questions today...
Is Yahweh a name for the Holy Trinity, or is Yahweh the name of God the Father?
As I investigated the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, I came to the conclusion that Yahweh is a name for the Holy Trinity and not a name for only God the Father. But I am not positive that I am correct in this assumption.
Help?
Pax,
Ruth
Yahweh refers to the entire Trinity, as may be seen from the fundamental confession of Judaism: the Shema found in Deuteronomy 6:4.
Shema Yisrael YHWH Eloheinu YHWH Echad.
(Usually Jews substitute the Hebrew word Adonai = Lord for YHWH, so as to avoid saying the divine name Yahweh. By not saying the divine name, we hope to avoid using this name in vain per the commandment.)
Shema = Listen!
Yisrael = Israel
YHWH = Yahweh
Eloheinu = Our God
Echad = "one" used for a plural unity in Hebrew, such as "one bunch" containing many grapes. cf. Num. 13:23. This is distinguished from the Hebrew word yachad which refers to a singular unity.
The word "is" is usually assumed, not specifically written, in Hebrew so the sentence "David is the shepherd." may be rendered: David ha-roeh= literally: "David the shepherd." which means: "David is the shepherd."
So, this verse translates literally:
Listen Israel! Yahweh our God, Yahweh is a "plural unity".
This central Torah affirmation of God links Yahweh with the Trinity.
Shalom!
Henry
Last edited on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 05:28 pm by hpj0828
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japhy
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 05:59 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote:
Yahweh refers to the entire Trinity, as may be seen from the fundamental confession of Judaism: the Shema found in Deuteronomy 6:4.
Shema Yisrael YHWH Eloheinu YHWH Echad.
Shema = Listen!
Yisrael = Israel
YHWH = Yahweh
Eloheinu = Our God
Echad = "one" used for a plural unity in Hebrew, such as "one bunch" containing many grapes. cf. Num. 13:23. This is distinguished from the Hebrew word yachad which refers to a singular unity.
The word "is" is usually assumed, not specifically written, in Hebrew so the sentence "David is the shepherd." may be rendered: David ha-roeh= literally: "David the shepherd." which means: "David is the shepherd."
So, this verse translates literally:
Listen Israel! Yahweh our God, Yahweh is a "plural unity".
This central Torah affirmation of God links Yahweh with the Trinity. Echad is also used in Gen 2:24 -- the two shall become one flesh.
Henry, I have also heard that the word used for God here is a plural, and yet the other words in this sentence treat it as though it were a singular. (Sources: A B)
Both those sources base themselves upon this:On the word (Elohim) Simeon Ben Joachi says: 'Come and see the mystery of the word (Elohim) there are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other.'
(The Treasure of Scripture Knowledge: Five Hundred Thousand Scripture References and Parallel Passages, Introduction by R. A. Torrey (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995), Electronic edition)
Can you explain what is meant by Simeon Ben Joachi when he says there are three "degrees" in the word Elohim?
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hpj0828
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 07:28 pm |
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japhy wrote: hpj0828 wrote:
Henry, I have also heard that the word used for God here is a plural, and yet the other words in this sentence treat it as though it were a singular. (Sources: A B)
Both those sources base themselves upon this:
On the word (Elohim) Simeon Ben Joachi says: 'Come and see the mystery of the word (Elohim) there are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other.'
(The Treasure of Scripture Knowledge: Five Hundred Thousand Scripture References and Parallel Passages, Introduction by R. A. Torrey (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995), Electronic edition)
Can you explain what is meant by Simeon Ben Joachi when he says there are three "degrees" in the word Elohim?
You are correct! Eloheinu = Elohim + nu = gods + our. So it actually means: "Our gods". Elohim is the common name translated "God" in the English Old Testament.
Rabbis like Simeon Ben Joachi (aka Shimon bar Yochai), to whom this saying is ascribed, took the literal arrangements of Hebrew words within the Old Testament as having spiritual significance. Thus, the question: Why are there three consecutive names for God in the Shema? It must mean something...
"Shema Yisrael 1. Yahweh 2. Eloheinu 3. Yahweh echad." says:
"Listen Israel! God, our God, God is one."
Thus, the three "degrees" or "emanations" of God are represented as a unity by this verse.
I didn't mean to get as deep as you are going on this one. But here's the background:
There is a branch of Jewish mysticism called the Kabbalah. Its earliest extant text is the Zohar (means "Splendor" or "Radiance"--thus "emanations") which dates to 13th C Spain. The Zohar itself claims to have been written by 2nd C rabbi Shimon bar Yochai--although there is no outside evidence to corroborate this ascription. Mystical elements in the Zohar appear to have roots in apocalyptic literature around the time of the 1st Century AD, now known as the Pseudepigrapha. There are also Talmudic references to the Merkabah (means chariot) mysticism (related to the heavenly visions in the initial chapters of Ezekiel) of the divine throne-chariot with the cherubim as angelic attendants. This esoteric knowledge and wisdom the Talmud considered dangerous, only permitting access to the wisest of sages. Of three sages who entered it fully, one became a Christian (a heretic from a rabbinic point of view, but maybe the first rabbi converted by the Kabbalah?), one went mad, and only one remained "sane" (Rabbi Akiba, who nevertheless supported the false prophet Bar Kochba as the Messiah in the 2nd C--so just how "sane" was he?). It is also possible that the Kabbalah has roots in mystical teachings that go back to Biblical times, although there is no clear proof that this is the case.
There are many aspects of the Kabbalah that are cognates for RC doctrines regarding Mary and the Trinity. As a result of studying the Kabbalah, many Spanish rabbis came into the RCC during the 15th C. Ironically, the Spanish Inquisition soon put an end to this influx of believing Jewish scholars!
The Kabbalah was "infiltrated" or "accomodated" to various occult doctrines and practices in the late 18th C, around the time that the Freemasons were similarly impacted. So, the Kabbalah, as it is handed down and practiced by Hasidim today, has a heavy slant toward witchcraft. Consequently, the study of Kabbalah requires sharp discernment by a person well-grounded in the Christian faith and Scriptures.
This being said, Kabbalists viewed God as casting out 10 Sephirot or emanations. The system is heavily symbolic and complex, but forms a basis for seeing three primary emanations of God which are analogous to the persons of the Trinity. If you google the term Sephirot, you will find several websites that can get you started. Be forewarned though, it's pretty wierd stuff... And easily subject to misinterpretation.
Henry
Last edited on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 07:32 pm by hpj0828
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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| I discovered recently that the Hasidic Jews believe in, e.g., reincarnation. Pretty weird blending of western and eastern religion . . .
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BeProf
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 12:20 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote:
I discovered recently that the Hasidic Jews believe in, e.g., reincarnation. Pretty weird blending of western and eastern religion . . .
I think that's because Hasidic Judaism has more to do with the Kabbalah than it does anything else.
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 03:36 pm |
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An important addition to this conversation is Jesus' proclamation to "the Jews" in John 8:58 where he states, "Very truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." This is certainly a harkening back to the Moses encounter with I AM. If it isn't, then why in the very next verse do the hearers of Jesus pick up stones to kill him, if they didn't hear Jesus claiming to be the One who revealed himself to Moses?
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 06:48 pm |
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| Absolutely. Somehow I overlooked this in my first reply, but it is an excellent argument.
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 12:54 am |
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A brief interjection -
When I'm with my Jewish friends or clients and we're discussing something religious ( yes !, we're able to do this amicably !), I am very conscious not to use the Tetragrammaton, in other words, - YHWH, or, Yahweh in conversation or written, - most especially to the conservative and Orthodox Jews. Adonai or G_d is acceptable.
As in with conversations between Catholics and non-Catholics, if one wants meaningful communication, it has to start with mutual respect and an awareness of what is most important religiously to the other person. Conversation goes farther if it begins deeper.
Has anyone else had the same experience with their friends of other faiths ?
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Posted: Mon May 5th, 2008 02:44 pm |
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This is a very intersting discussion!!!!!
As in with conversations between Catholics and non-Catholics, if one wants meaningful communication, it has to start with mutual respect and an awareness of what is most important religiously to the other person. Conversation goes farther if it begins deeper.
Has anyone else had the same experience with their friends of other faiths ?
Something I am learning late in life...but learning none-the-less.
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 660 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 12:20 pm |
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mg57 wrote: Has anyone else had the same experience with their friends of other faiths ?
Yes, most Jewish people I communicate with online use G-D, instead of typing it all out. But they also do not get offended when someone of another faith does. Assume positive intent, that's my online rule.
Ali
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