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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1201 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:20 pm |
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| I am struggling to explain to my grandchildren who God is, and who Jesus is. We haven't gotten to the Holy Spirit yet. The eight year old wants to know why no one has ever seen God. (The atheist aunt and uncle love that one). Someone here suggested telling them we have seen God, in Jesus his son. If I do that, how will I explain Joseph? This must be a common problem! Was Joseph a step-father or a foster father?
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 603 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 01:26 pm |
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Adopted Father? The man God picked to love and take care of Mary and His Son on earth for him. LOL at the questions it brings up. What is a virgin? Have they asked that yet? I don't really like the term "adopted" father myself. I try to stick with the second line I suggested and expand on as needed.
Just remember, usually kids are happy with a one or two sentence answer when we are the ones obsessing over the details 
ETA -- You really need to invest in some of those little St. Joseph books. They are cheap, have nice pictures, and wonderful explanations. http://www.getfed.com/catholic-product/7863/Good-St-Joseph/
Ali
Last edited on Wed May 7th, 2008 01:31 pm by Ali
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BD
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| Joined: | Wed Mar 26th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 35 |
| First Name: | Brett | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Non-denominational evangelical, Mennonite (Anabaptist), now Evangelical-Anabapti-catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 04:02 pm |
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I love these questions! Reminds me when my 6 year old daughter asked, "Dad, how can God be here right now and somewhere else all at the same time?" I just hugged her and said, "I love you and your great questions!" Then I fumbled through an answer about God being Spirit and not limited in his Presense the way we are in our bodies (as I poked her in the arm). I worried it would not be good enough...or orthodox...but we do our best and let God do the rest. And really, that is all we can do. We have to trust that our best efforts at explaining (or the times we have to say "I don't know, let's look into that together") are the times that God takes over and uses us...even we fumbling persons.
To your questions CC: let me just say, don't feel bad about "not getting to the Holy Spirit yet." If you read the Nicene Creed of 325 you'll see that all that council had to say at the time was, "and (we believe) in the Holy Spirit"! That was it!
I think it is good and right to channel the discussion back to Jesus as God enfleshed. Start with Jesus and that allows us two things: 1) it lets Jesus introduce God the Father, since Jesus is the One who makes the Father's will known to us, and 2) it brings up the Church as the body Christ gathered into existence and to whom we turn to in order to get the answers to these very questions the child is raising. I'd address the Joseph question if it comes up, but I would be very careful to not give our kids too much too soon. They need to plod through this stuff and will ask questions as they come up; they need not have us force the issues that arise as matters of logic from the unfolding of the story.
Above all, I find it helpful when I speak to my girls to say, I can answer your questions and share with you what the Church says, but you are invited to know Jesus, and in knowing him and talking to him in prayer, your answers will also be given. God loves you, I often say, and would love for you to know and love him too.
I read a wonderful book entitled _Conversations with Poppi About God: A Theologian and His Granddaughter Trade Questions_ published by Brazos Press and co-authored by Robert Jenson and his granddaughter. Robert Jenson is a Lutheran theologian...just so you know. But it is a remarkable book which is basically a transcript of conversations the theologian would have while he sat down with his bright 8 year old granddaughter. Actually, she's quite the theologian herself. SO I should say, conversations the theologian had with her grandfather!
Beautiful examples of conversations about the Trinity...the fall into sin...the origins of Christianity...reflections together on the Lord's Prayer...most everything...just great stuff. I recommend it not for its orthodoxy (though I like much of it), but for its model of conversation and back and forth questioning.
Here is one example of this insightful 8 year old's questions: "Father, Holy Spirit, Son...The Holy Spirit is like their love. So why does it go after? Shouldn't it be between them?"...What a great question! Then later she has an aha moment of sorts and says when she crosses herself (she's Anglican) the Holy Spirit IS in the middle!
These are really lovely moments in our lives. I cherish them. I think it is good to celebrate the question, offer a brief and modest (in the sense of not overly complex) answer. If more questions come, great. If not, ask questions back. I am at my happiest when these questions become events my kids and I share in the excited sharing of questions and answers and in probing the thoughts and hearts of each other. I don't want my children just to see me as a dictionary full of correct answers, but a partner in working out our ideas about God. A beautiful task!
____________________
Non abbiate paura!
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Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1201 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 04:25 pm |
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| Thank you Ali and Brett, for the good suggestions and the book references. I am so happy in a way that I am the principle person in their lives giving them the gospel. Because I can give them the truth; I just have to be sure it's correct! Their prayer life is limited to blessings at the table and when I'm there, bedtime prayer. It's always the same little standard children's blessings, so they look astounded sometimes when I go on with spontaneous thanks. Giving the Lord to your children is supreme happiness.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4955 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed May 7th, 2008 05:18 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: I am struggling to explain to my grandchildren who God is, and who Jesus is. We haven't gotten to the Holy Spirit yet. The eight year old wants to know why no one has ever seen God. (The atheist aunt and uncle love that one). Someone here suggested telling them we have seen God, in Jesus his son. If I do that, how will I explain Joseph? This must be a common problem! Was Joseph a step-father or a foster father?
Has anyone ever seen air? Electricity? Cold? Love? No, but we see the effects all around us, and that does not make them any less real. You can prove there is air by blowing up a balloon, and you can hear the squeal when you let it out, and you can feel the air coming out, but you still can't see the air. You can turn on a light and know that electricity is there, but you still can't see the electricity. You can see the fog around an ice cube but that's the moisture condensing in the air; you still can't see the cold.
As to Joseph, he was a foster father or guaredian. He took care of Jesus and loved and raised him on behalf of his real Father, who was in heaven. He was not an adoptive father, because Almighty God never "gave up custody" of his one and only Son.
Ask the eight year old if it's possible to know someone by what they do. Do you know your mom loves you when she cooks you a really good meal, or serves you a piece of your favorite cake, or buys you chocolate or your favorite snack? You can't see her love, but you can see it in the things she does for you. And you know there's a God a God loves you because God created this marvelous world and puppies and snowflakes and {insert favorite things} and gave them all to you to enjoy.
How's that?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1184 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 07:02 pm |
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God the Father is a spirit and cannot be seen. The Holy Spirit is a spirit (!). Jesus the Son can, of course, be seen, and reveals the Father (Passages: KJV):
A. God the Father is Invisible, and Can't be Seen
1) EXODUS 33:20,23 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live . . . (23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. {cf. Jud 13:22}
2) JOHN 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time . . .
3) JOHN 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
4) JOHN 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
5) COLOSSIANS 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
6) 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 . . . the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, . . .
7) 1 TIMOTHY 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: . . .
8) 1 JOHN 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time . . .
B. Jesus Reveals, and is the Image of, the Father
1) JOHN 1:18 . . . the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared {him}. {RSV,NIV: "made him known"}
2) JOHN 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
3) JOHN 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (9) Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou {then}, Shew us the Father?
4) 2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 . . . Christ, who is the image of God, . . .
5) COLOSSIANS 1:15 . . . the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
6) HEBREWS 1:3 Who being the brightness of {his} glory, and the express image of his person, . . .
7) REVELATION 22:1,3-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb . . . (3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (4) And they shall see his face; . . .
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 832 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist; Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 07:32 pm |
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I always wince when I hear Joseph referred to as a foster father.
A man who has a child in his home for only a week is given that title
in this country.
Except for the initial biology, Joseph performed all the fatherly responsibilities and performed them so well, and with such devotion, that he not only deserves to be called a father, he has become the model for all fathers. I've always felt that God chose Joseph as much as He chose Mary.
As a child I had no trouble dealing with Joseph as the daddy or father while also being taught that Jesus was the Son of God.
Perhaps a little child would respond well to hearing that God chose Joseph to be the Daddy for little Jesus because Jesus needed a human father, in addition to His heavenly Father.
____________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." James 1:2-4 RSV (SCE)
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Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1201 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 07:44 pm |
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| Wow, those are all good points, and thanks Dave for the scripture. I have a good feeling about our next conversation about Jesus and Joseph, and how God has provided everything and everyone to help us know Him. Even as adults some of this is still a mystery. Last edited on Thu May 8th, 2008 07:45 pm by Credo Catholic
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4955 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu May 8th, 2008 09:54 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: I always wince when I hear Joseph referred to as a foster father.
A man who has a child in his home for only a week is given that title
in this country.
But so do those who care for children who are not their own for decades. Just like an abusive father is still a "father", a foster father who raises a child from infancy to adulthood without the benefit of biology or legality is still a "foster father".
Legally, Joseph was Jesus' father in every respect since he was the husband of the Mother of God. Biologically, Joseph had no claim at all. "Step-Father" doesn't fit because Jesus had no human father at all. So "Foster Father" is the closest descriptor we have for the unique relationship between Joseph and Jesus. And "daddy" doesn't really fit either, since Jesus called his heavenly Father "Abba", the equivalent of "daddy".
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 832 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist; Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri May 9th, 2008 02:09 am |
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BD wrote:
I love these questions! Reminds me when my 6 year old daughter asked, "Dad, how can God be here right now and somewhere else all at the same time?" I just hugged her and said, "I love you and your great questions!" Then I fumbled through an answer about God being Spirit and not limited in his Presense the way we are in our bodies (as I poked her in the arm). I worried it would not be good enough...or orthodox...but we do our best and let God do the rest. And really, that is all we can do. We have to trust that our best efforts at explaining (or the times we have to say "I don't know, let's look into that together") are the times that God takes over and uses us...even we fumbling persons.
To your questions CC: let me just say, don't feel bad about "not getting to the Holy Spirit yet." If you read the Nicene Creed of 325 you'll see that all that council had to say at the time was, "and (we believe) in the Holy Spirit"! That was it!
I think it is good and right to channel the discussion back to Jesus as God enfleshed. Start with Jesus and that allows us two things: 1) it lets Jesus introduce God the Father, since Jesus is the One who makes the Father's will known to us, and 2) it brings up the Church as the body Christ gathered into existence and to whom we turn to in order to get the answers to these very questions the child is raising. I'd address the Joseph question if it comes up, but I would be very careful to not give our kids too much too soon. They need to plod through this stuff and will ask questions as they come up; they need not have us force the issues that arise as matters of logic from the unfolding of the story.
Above all, I find it helpful when I speak to my girls to say, I can answer your questions and share with you what the Church says, but you are invited to know Jesus, and in knowing him and talking to him in prayer, your answers will also be given. God loves you, I often say, and would love for you to know and love him too.
I read a wonderful book entitled _Conversations with Poppi About God: A Theologian and His Granddaughter Trade Questions_ published by Brazos Press and co-authored by Robert Jenson and his granddaughter. Robert Jenson is a Lutheran theologian...just so you know. But it is a remarkable book which is basically a transcript of conversations the theologian would have while he sat down with his bright 8 year old granddaughter. Actually, she's quite the theologian herself. SO I should say, conversations the theologian had with her grandfather!
Beautiful examples of conversations about the Trinity...the fall into sin...the origins of Christianity...reflections together on the Lord's Prayer...most everything...just great stuff. I recommend it not for its orthodoxy (though I like much of it), but for its model of conversation and back and forth questioning.
Here is one example of this insightful 8 year old's questions: "Father, Holy Spirit, Son...The Holy Spirit is like their love. So why does it go after? Shouldn't it be between them?"...What a great question! Then later she has an aha moment of sorts and says when she crosses herself (she's Anglican) the Holy Spirit IS in the middle!
These are really lovely moments in our lives. I cherish them. I think it is good to celebrate the question, offer a brief and modest (in the sense of not overly complex) answer. If more questions come, great. If not, ask questions back. I am at my happiest when these questions become events my kids and I share in the excited sharing of questions and answers and in probing the thoughts and hearts of each other. I don't want my children just to see me as a dictionary full of correct answers, but a partner in working out our ideas about God. A beautiful task!
Brett,
What lucky, lucky little girls to have such a father!
Becky
____________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." James 1:2-4 RSV (SCE)
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