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Luke12:48
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 12:57 am |
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In ongoing discussion with a variety of protestants, I keep coming back to a discussion on faith vs works and the whole idea of "born-again" I try to keep it hypothetical rather than a verse throwing fest so I can understand the logic but I am not getting it.
I ask what happens if someone is born again and then commits murder --do they go to heaven? I get a strong yes and am told that you can never lose your salvation. (yet as a Catholic I am accused of being able to sin, go to confession and then sin again knowing I can go to confession again--despite my explaining how that is not accurate)
One person suggested that if you are truly born again, then you cannot then murder (or we tried inserting various sins here and the answer was the same) It is not possible (bye-bye free will) Another suggested that if you did murder, then you really were not born-again but were just faking it.
When I ask further about how that makes sense and where is the justice being able to sin and still go to heaven, I am told that there is a period of cleansing before heaven. Of course I say--oh you mean like pugatory --vehement No and then a discussion on being judged and then separated like sheep and goats.
Then depending on which person I am speaking with, I get long speeches on pre and post tribulation.
When I extend this discussion to charity, I am told that if you are born-again then your life will change and you will act as Christ did (hmm--I hear works)
What am I missing?
Is this like when a Catholic really does not know their faith well and cannot answer a question or are we all really more on the same page than we would like to admit?
Last edited on Tue May 1st, 2007 01:09 am by Luke12:48
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue May 1st, 2007 02:02 am |
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I’ve stopped trying to make sense of the line of reasoning these Protestants represent, Kate. I am not convinced by such mental gymnastics, simply because I saw long ago what common sense will show: that faith and works are not opposed to each other but instead are mutually supportive.
As you say, these ideologues don’t even seem to perceive that they actually would accept many of the things the Catholic Church teaches if they followed some simple rules of logic. They won’t admit it because that would make them (ugh!) Catholics. So they continue to hide behind vestiges of Calvinism instead of coming to a real understanding of their own souls and their deepest spiritual needs. Several bold souls who have appeared on this forum and worked their way through the maze of misapprehensions they were fed have commented on their frustrated aspirations as Fundamentalists and their liberation through acceptance of the Real Presence.
Christians are supposed to be vessels of charity, but these folk have twisted the Christian religion into a vehicle of hate and fear. That young man in the Fellowship Hall area who has lately been introduced to Fundamentalism and anti-Catholicism has begun to experience just this aspect of the human heart, and one can feel the confusion and revulsion. Several people have pointed out to him this difference between “kinds” of Christianity. I certainly hope he can see it. Let us pray that he will find the strength in God’s grace to resist all lies and hatred.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 10:09 am |
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Calvanism has caused me to see God as one who only cares for the "elect", that all others can go to hell as far as He is concerned, it has made loving God impossible for me! It has led me to believe that the only reason God brought me forth from the womb was to make me part of the blackness, to provide the backdrop that wuold allow for His diamonds, the objects of His mercy, to shine more brightly.
I put up a prayer request for this young man int the prayer threads, I was right where he is over 25 years ago, life has been unbearable for me over the years, a hell on earth if you will, I would that God would spare him from such a life and stop the devil from raping his youth!
Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 10:44 am by Candlemass
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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japhy
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 12:49 pm |
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The first problem with "works" is that there are two kinds of them: works of the law, and works of the Spirit. The epistles (even in the KJV!) have many references to doing "good works" (those of the Spirit):
To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Romans 2:7) Eternal life is the gift given to those who seek the glory of God, to honor the Creator, and to live in immortality with Him: they seek these things by doing good works.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) We were made for good works!
Lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. (Colossians 1:10) A life in the Lord bears fruit in good works.
I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8) Paul says good deeds are profitable!
The second problem is that people think Catholics believe good works get them into Heaven. This is not the truth. If you read the canons of the sixth session of Trent, on justification (I have a copy at http://japhy.perlmonk.org/TCR/Trent6-Justification.doc ), you'll see that the Catholic Church believes good works are not the cause of our salvation, but rather the necessary fruit of an authentic belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8) The Catholic Church believes that and does not (cannot!) disagree.
Good works are part of our sanctification. They are the (super-)natural response to God's love for us. Jesus talks about good works in the Gospel (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the ill and imprisoned, etc.). He even goes so far as to say (in Matthew 25) that those who neglect these duties are neglecting them to Jesus Christ himself and are not welcome in the kingdom of heaven!
You could also consider looking at the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on Justification (I have a copy at http://japhy.perlmonk.org/TCR/JustificationJointDeclaration.doc ).
Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 01:10 pm by japhy
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 04:07 pm |
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japhy wrote: The first problem with "works" is that there are two kinds of them: works of the law, and works of the Spirit. The epistles (even in the KJV!) have many references to doing "good works" (those of the Spirit):
To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Romans 2:7) Eternal life is the gift given to those who seek the glory of God, to honor the Creator, and to live in immortality with Him: they seek these things by doing good works.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) We were made for good works!
Lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. (Colossians 1:10) A life in the Lord bears fruit in good works.
I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8) Paul says good deeds are profitable!
The second problem is that people think Catholics believe good works get them into Heaven. This is not the truth. If you read the canons of the sixth session of Trent, on justification (I have a copy at http://japhy.perlmonk.org/TCR/Trent6-Justification.doc ), you'll see that the Catholic Church believes good works are not the cause of our salvation, but rather the necessary fruit of an authentic belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8) The Catholic Church believes that and does not (cannot!) disagree.
Good works are part of our sanctification. They are the (super-)natural response to God's love for us. Jesus talks about good works in the Gospel (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the ill and imprisoned, etc.). He even goes so far as to say (in Matthew 25) that those who neglect these duties are neglecting them to Jesus Christ himself and are not welcome in the kingdom of heaven!
You could also consider looking at the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on Justification (I have a copy at http://japhy.perlmonk.org/TCR/JustificationJointDeclaration.doc ).
That was great man! 
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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DWB
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:34 pm |
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Candlemass & Friends,
I come from a background of eternal-security theology. None of the churches I was affiliated with subscribe to the Elect notion of Calvinism. These churches (Fundamental Baptist) are very fixed on the belief that once one is born again, one cannot lose that salvation. But this concept of salvation is universally accessible, not just to a predestined Elect.
When I joined with the Wesleyans later in my faith journey, I was shocked to meet born-again Christians who actually believed you could lose your salvation, too by falling away. Wow.
Take care
Dan
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:42 pm |
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DWB wrote: Candlemass & Friends,
Welcome to our forum, Dan, and to the Catholic Church.
We look forward to your faith story when you feel comfortable sharing it with us. I have never understood how any person can resolve "eternal security" with the fact that we are all sinners, and that even Paul said we need to work out our salvation in "fear and trembling."
I was shocked to meet born-again Christians who actually believed you could lose your salvation, too by falling away.
And how have your beliefs changed now that you're Catholic?
Once again, welcome to the Coming Home Network and to the Catholic faith. We're happy to have you here with us.
Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:43 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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japhy
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:52 pm |
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DWB wrote: Candlemass & Friends,
I come from a background of eternal-security theology. None of the churches I was affiliated with subscribe to the Elect notion of Calvinism. These churches (Fundamental Baptist) are very fixed on the belief that once one is born again, one cannot lose that salvation. But this concept of salvation is universally accessible, not just to a predestined Elect.
When I joined with the Wesleyans later in my faith journey, I was shocked to meet born-again Christians who actually believed you could lose your salvation, too by falling away. Wow.
Take care
Dan
The New Testament is replete with reminders that we must persevere and endure to the end. Paul himself feared for his eternal security: I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1 Cor 9:27) Of all people, why would Paul be afraid of future disqualification from the "race" of holiness in Christ? I'd say it's because he knew he could forfeit his salvation by not living up to the commandments of God. He made sure to remain in control of his body so that he would not fall prey to the temptations of the flesh. Paul reminds us that even Christians can be unrighteous, and the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:8-10). So it's not enough to believe in Jesus Christ (even the demons believe -- and shudder (James 2:19)), you must also be justified before God, and there are ways for Christians to forsake that justification.
If "once saved, always saved" were true, what need would we have for Jesus our Savior once we "got saved"? Why bother to pray and worship? If we're secure, what more could we do? What more could Jesus do?! Rather, although Christ defeated sin, we must constantly be united to him to share that victory. He is our antidote, our protection, our shield. A shield is of no use when there is no more enemy, and this world is testimony to the existence of the Enemy. Christians sin. Christians even sin gravely. It is imperative that we continually appeal to Jesus Christ and pray for the mercy and forgiveness of God... and that we honestly and genuinely repent and live the commandments Jesus gave us. It's not impossible (cf. Trent 6, Justification, Chapter XI and Canons XVIII-XXI) with God (cf. Matthew 19:26).
Amen. Time for dinner!
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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DWB
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 07:55 pm |
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Cajunrick, Japhy
Thanks for your replies. I will post a conversion story soon. I am still grappling with some of the new (to me) doctrines. The Real Presence has been quite a challenge to me as well as baptism for the remission of sins, but I'm giving them over to study and prayer.
If someone asks me if I am "saved", I always tell them that I came to know Christ when I was 17. I just didn't follow the correct faith path after meeting with the grace of God. The eternal security question was a BIG issue for me- - I actually did a research paper on it in seminary to settle the questions in my mind more than to get a grade.
Take care,
DanLast edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:00 pm by DWB
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:01 pm |
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DWB wrote: will post a conversion story soon.
I will be looking forward to it. Meanwhile, we have some very knowledgeable people around here. Please feel free to ask any questions you are struggling with, and we'll do our best to answer them for you.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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japhy
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:24 pm |
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DWB wrote: If someone asks me if I am "saved", I always tell them that I came to know Christ when I was 17.
"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist.
The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
From "Assurance of Salvation?" at http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:33 pm |
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japhy wrote: DWB wrote: If someone asks me if I am "saved", I always tell them that I came to know Christ when I was 17.
"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist.
The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
From "Assurance of Salvation?" at http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
I hope what your saying is true, this is one of the two seemingly impassable mountains for my return to the Church, would love to see one cast into the sea!
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:43 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: japhy wrote: DWB wrote: If someone asks me if I am "saved", I always tell them that I came to know Christ when I was 17.
The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
I hope what your saying is true, this is one of the two seemingly impassable mountains for my return to the Church, would love to see one cast into the sea!
This is Catholic doctrine. Salvation is a journey that begins at our baptism and does not end until we stand perfected before God's Throne. Unless we refuse to accept God's saving grace through mortal sin and then fail to repent, we continue our progress. So it is correct to say we were saved, we are saved, and we will be saved.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:07 pm |
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Most of the Catholic doctrines I see as hurtles to overcome, this was a mountain, I was told the Church taught you must earn salvation, this is good news indeed!
The other mountain, will Christ and the Church indeed forgive me at my confession, this guilt has been on my head for over 25 years! Most Protestant pastors would not confirm to me I was forgiven, ones who did, well, I would feel ok for a while, untill the "voices" started; "So you fooled them did you? I know you, adulturer, liar, idolator, murderer, blasphemer........apostate! I would sink back into manic depression, I have lived woth a fleeting hope that I might be forgiven, but no assurance.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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japhy
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:35 pm |
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Candlemass wrote: The other mountain, will Christ and the Church indeed forgive me at my confession, this guilt has been on my head for over 25 years! Most Protestant pastors would not confirm to me I was forgiven, ones who did, well, I would feel ok for a while, untill the "voices" started; "So you fooled them did you? I know you, adulturer, liar, idolator, murderer, blasphemer........apostate! I would sink back into manic depression, I have lived woth a fleeting hope that I might be forgiven, but no assurance.
I was at a retreat a couple weeks ago, and one of the speakers was a man who talked about the abortion he was complicit in 18 years ago when he was in college. When he finally went to confession (some 10 years later or so), he almost backed out of it. He said that he learned one of Satan's tricks: he removes all the guilt from an action right before we commit it, by giving us ways to justify our actions despite God's commandments to us... then he piles all that guilt (with interest!) back on our shoulders when we think of confessing our sins and righting ourselves with God again.
It's true, at least in my experience. But the beautiful part is that God has the power to lift that burden of your shoulders. I feel so renewed and refreshed after confession. I know that burden has been removed by God: I can feel it.
And it's a human reaction to doubt such an awesome power as God's. The Council of Trent, Canon #13 on Justification, basically says that the efficacy (the effectiveness and reality) of the forgiveness of sins does not depend on our human understanding of it. Even in our wavering and questioning -- "can God really forgive me for that?" -- God truly has forgiven us. To deny that He could outright is a sin in and of itself, but to question it is part of our frail and broken human condition.
Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:36 pm by japhy
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 11:30 pm |
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Quote:to question it is part of our frail and broken human condition.
My username is "Fragile" on some boards, as well as on mypage!
http://www.myspace.com/childinsilence
Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 11:32 pm by Candlemass
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 02:03 am |
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| I read once that Luther wanted the book of James removed from cannonazation and considered it straw because of the works aspect to it?
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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brian
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 03:03 am |
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Candlemass wrote: Most of the Catholic doctrines I see as hurtles to overcome, this was a mountain, I was told the Church taught you must earn salvation, this is good news indeed!
Salvation can not be earned. At our best we probably deserve Hell. We have all rebelled. Salvation is a gift. The possibility of salvation is gift. We must try to understand the way grace comes before and is found in every good and pleasing work. To me salvation as a Catholic is not about being good enough, so much as living this life in friendship with God and following him closely enough that we will surely not turn away from Him who our heart loves. It is not a formula, contract, or about works, it is about love and if we love God in this life and do our best to follow Him this love relationship perfects itself in the next life.
There is much required of us in regard to our salvation. But it is simply a matter of what the bible calls being saved by faith. It is about living our faith. Faith as mere intellectual assent is not a saving faith. The important distinction is that we are not earning the gift. God pours His love and spirit in our hearts abundantly and without us earning it and this enables us to obey and live for Him. Still, it does not force us. We can turn away. But any work we do that is good was simply a partipation with grace. Only what God does in us and gives to us will stand.
So the thing is that we are saved by faith if one defines the matter cautiously. But salvation is ultimately won for us by Christ and our union with his efforts on our behalf which atone for our iniquities and wash us whiter than snow. If we do anything in regards to achieving salvation, it is only because it is God's gift that asks us to do so and gives us the strength. But He has opened the door to eternal life through His Son's life death and resurrection. Apart from our being identified with this event we have no hope. We simply trust Him to save us, and try to take care of what he asks of us.
hope this did not confuse you further. The point is that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Still we must seek to understand what this means.
Brian
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 08:00 am |
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Quote: hope this did not confuse you further.
As if that were possible! 
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri May 4th, 2007 07:56 pm |
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DWB wrote: Candlemass & Friends,
I come from a background of eternal-security theology. None of the churches I was affiliated with subscribe to the Elect notion of Calvinism. These churches (Fundamental Baptist) are very fixed on the belief that once one is born again, one cannot lose that salvation. But this concept of salvation is universally accessible, not just to a predestined Elect.
When I joined with the Wesleyans later in my faith journey, I was shocked to meet born-again Christians who actually believed you could lose your salvation, too by falling away. Wow.
Take care
Dan
Yes Dan, I also was a Wesleyan and Pilgrim Holiness. Both believe that one can lose their salvation. So Catholics should know that eternal security, or predestination as believed by Calvin, are not beliefs held by all Protestants.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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dblake22
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| Joined: | Mon Aug 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sacramento, California USA |
| Posts: | 9 |
| First Name: | Dan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left at age 23, IFCA, reformed baptist |
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 01:44 am |
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Luke12:48 wrote: 1. Re. faith vs works . . . I ask what happens if someone is born again and then commits murder--do they go to heaven? I get a strong yes and am told that you can never lose your salvation. 2. One person suggested that if you are truly born again, then you cannot then murder. It is not possible (bye-bye free will). 3. Another suggested that if you did murder, then you really were not born-again but were just faking it. 4. I ask further about how that makes sense and where is the justice being able to sin and still go to heaven? 5. When I extend this discussion to charity, I am told that if you are born-again then your life will change and you will act as Christ did (hmm--I hear works). 6. Is this like when a Catholic really does not know their faith well and cannot answer a question or are we all really more on the same page than we would like to admit?
Hi Kate,
I know this is an old thread, but I am a new member. As I read through the replys it didn't look as if anyone answered your many questions. I thought I would take a crack at them. In order, my answers are:
1. Yes, he would enter heaven's glory after having shed many mournful tears, as did St. Peter the night he denied Christ.
2. Not being able to sin is a condition that will have to wait until we can see Jesus face-to-face. In this life, our spirit is at constant war with our flesh. (Not to go down a rabbit hole, but "free will" has nothing to do with it.  )
3. Certainly a possibility, but not a necessity.
4. The justice is found in the efficacious sacrifice of the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."
5. Hmm, so do I.
6. Yes, it sounds like the people you have asked lacked a good formation; however, often these conversations are fruitless because the two individuals do not speak the same language. And yes, in general we read from the same page.
Blessings to all,
Dan
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pamflute
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tampa, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 24 |
| First Name: | Pam | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist to Presbyterian to United Methodist to Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Aug 25th, 2007 02:49 pm |
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| I would be interested to have someone like David or Rick listen to the podcast of "Pilgrims from Paradise" by Matthew Gallatin. Matthew was a former Protestant minister who became Orthodox. His podcast is on Ancient Faith Radio and he has a lengthy discussion on faith and works and how they relate to one another. He mainly focuses on the life of Abraham and calls the relationship of faith and works a "dance" with God. I really liked it and I am wondering how much his assessment agrees with the Catholic position.
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David W. Emery
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