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mommy2boys
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 11:00 pm |
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Do Catholics believe that protestants who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour will be saved? Does the Catholic church teach that only Catholics are saved? What about devout protestants and evangleicals? What is the churches stand on them?
Thanks,
Janet
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 11:31 pm |
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mommy2boys wrote: Do Catholics believe that protestants who have Jesus as Lord and Saviour will be saved? Does the Catholic church teach that only Catholics are saved? What about devout protestants and evangleicals? What is the churches stand on them?
The Catholic Church teaches that all who seek God with a sincere heart may be saved. We consider salvation a journey that begins at baptism and doesn't end until death, so we can't say they "will be saved" but they certainly are eligible for salvation as long as they seek God with a sincere heart. The same is true of non-Christians who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
So the Catholic Church does in fact teach that "outside the Church there is no salvation", but this does not apply to those who, through no fault of their own, are not aware of this requirement. That includes non-Catholic Christians and people of other faiths, such as Muslims. However, the restriction remains that they must, to the best of their knowledge and ability "seek God with a sincere heart."
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 06:44 am |
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| Shalom. I was wondering if maybe i could see some scripture that speaks on the "no salvation outside the church" thing. I only know no salvation without Christ from my understanding of the scripture. I see the catechism view but no scripture reference. I do have my scripture reference for salvation through Christ only. Acts 4:8-12
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Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 08:34 am |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: Shalom. I was wondering if maybe i could see some scripture that speaks on the "no salvation outside the church" thing. I only know no salvation without Christ from my understanding of the scripture. I see the catechism view but no scripture reference. I do have my scripture reference for salvation through Christ only. Acts 4:8-12
Welcome to the Coming Home Network. We're happy to have you here with us. We welcome all who sincerely seek information about the Catholic faith, regardless of where they are on their faith journey, and we're glad to have you here with us. Once you are acclimated we'd love to hear about your faith story. Meanwhile, I just wanted to welcome you here.
Answers to your question will be forthcoming. but first I wanted to welcome you.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 08:44 am |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: Shalom. I was wondering if maybe i could see some scripture that speaks on the "no salvation outside the church" thing. I only know no salvation without Christ from my understanding of the scripture. I see the catechism view but no scripture reference. I do have my scripture reference for salvation through Christ only. Acts 4:8-12
I am very short of time at the moment so I can't go into detail, but I didn't want to leave without giving you a response of some kind. Let me refer you to this Faith Fact by Catholics United for the Faith that explains the Church's teaching and gives references from scripture and from the Early Church Fathers.
I hope this helps, and I'm sure others will be along as our work schedules permit to give a more detailed answer.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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Because God knows, searches, and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).
Forgive me friend but this does not make any sense to me. My bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Then later says that the reward (or wages) of that sin is death. We are all guilty of breaking the law of God and if He is indeed a good God then we should expect a righteous judgment not based on who we are or what we say we do or dont know. But, on the contrary, the righteous judgement is based on what and who God is and how perfect His law and justice is. In other words the way the bible puts it is that he that knows Christ is not condemned but he that doesnt believe is condemned already.
I am just trying to not be prejudice about catholicism. I want to hear from the horses mouth. So all i do is read scripture and study the scriptures daily to see if what people tell me is true. Im sorry but i have found a lot of falsedhood in catholicism. But dont feel bad or discouraged,you seem to have a good disposition, I just like to expound on truth.
____________________
Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 12:07 am |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: Im sorry but i have found a lot of falsedhood in catholicism. But dont feel bad or discouraged,you seem to have a good disposition, I just like to expound on truth.
If you wish to distort Catholic teaching or tell us why the Catholic Church is wrong (as you have just done), you are not welcomed here. If you truly wish to learn more about the Catholic faith, you are.
Specifically you made the following statement:
Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).
This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church, no matter how "well known" you may claim it to be. You cited a "no. 7" but I have no idea what that makes reference to. The question asked in this topic was for the teaching of the Catholic Church; I quoted the Catechism to explain exactly what the teaching is. You have discounted it because I didn't quote scripture. That isn't what I was asked. I responded to you on my lunch hour at work and I had enough respect for you to give you a reference which gave you references to scripture and to the Early Church Fathers. You have ignored both the Catechism's explanation and the Faith Fact's citations from scripture and the ECF. Instead, you have repeated the same false statement.
Feel free to ask all the questions you like about Catholic teaching, but do not tell us that we lied. I gave you reliable sources of information about Catholic teaching which you apparently have not even read or if you have, you have chosen not to believe. Instead, you repeated the same falsehoods. What you claim is Catholic teaching is not. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is open to all who seek God with a sincere heart, even if they have never heard of the Catholic Church or of Jesus Christ. God desires all to be saved, and so does the Catholic Church. If that is contrary to what you have heard from other sources, then so be it. The information I gave is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Whether you choose to believe that is up to you. However, you are not permitted to come here and distort Catholic teaching. That is not the purpose of the Coming Home Network.
I truly hope you will stay with an honest desire to learn more about the Catholic faith regardless of your purpose, but I will expect you to believe the honesty of our answers.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Juan
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 01:01 am |
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Shalom.
Sounds like you're playing my tune.
I was wondering if maybe i could see some scripture that speaks on the "no salvation outside the church" thing.
Sure.
The Church is the body of Christ. He who does not gather with the Church does not gather with Christ:
Luke 11:23
He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
He who does not listen to the Church is banished:
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hearchurch, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. the
He who does not believe the Church is condemned:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I only know no salvation without Christ from my understanding of the scripture.
The Scripture says that you must not lean to your own understanding:
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
The Scripture also says that God wants all to be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I see the catechism view but no scripture reference. I do have my scripture reference for salvation through Christ only. Acts 4:8-12
That is true, there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. Yet Scripture also says that we can save our fellow man:
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Sincerely,
Juan
Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2007 01:02 am by Juan
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Juan
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 01:21 am |
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But dont feel bad or discouraged,you seem to have a good disposition, I just like to expound on truth.
No problem. Really. I also love to expound on truth.
Because God knows, searches, and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
you have just described mortal sin:
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance": Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen
Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).
Forgive me friend but this does not make any sense to me. My bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Have all sinned? A child in the womb, has he sinned? A child who has not reached the age of reason, has he sinned?
So, all doesn't mean all without exception does it? Or explain how it can mean every single person without exception.
Then later says that the reward (or wages) of that sin is death. We are all guilty of breaking the law of God and if He is indeed a good God then we should expect a righteous judgment not based on who we are or what we say we do or dont know. But, on the contrary, the righteous judgement is based on what and who God is and how perfect His law and justice is. In other words the way the bible puts it is that he that knows Christ is not condemned but he that doesnt believe is condemned already.
Show me from Scripture, because this is what I read:
You must believe AND be baptized:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
You must bear fruit:
John 15 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:
I am just trying to not be prejudice about catholicism.
Try a little harder.
I want to hear from the horses mouth. So all i do is read scripture and study the scriptures daily to see if what people tell me is true.
Scripture cautions that some need a teacher:
Acts 8:27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
And that some simply don't understand:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
And that is why Christ established the Church, that She may teach what Christ taught and make disciplesof the world:
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Im sorry but i have found a lot of falsedhood in catholicism. But dont feel bad or discouraged,you seem to have a good disposition, I just like to expound on truth.
You have found no falsehood in Catholicism. You have run dead smack into your own errors and misunderstandings.
Sincerely,
Juan
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 06:48 am |
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Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).
My friend I got this statement from the Faith Fact page you gave me. This is the teaching of the catholic church. At least thats what the page you gave me says. Forgive me I forgot to put it in quotes. So this is not my claim but it is the catholic churches claim. I found it under Magisterial Pronouncements.
As you see when you look back at what you gave me to look at, Faith Facts, you will see that I indeed got this from you. And if it came from the catechism then I am only taking from what I read sir. I am truly seeking to find out what you and the catholic church believe. I am doing this to try and diminish my prejudice as i said before. If questions based on information that you gave me from your source are wrong then I will by all means leave because that makes no sense to me.
Wherefore, as by one mans sin entered into the world,and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned. Romans 5:12 I dont see any exceptions here. Look, I am wrong alot so I am not saying I know it all. I am just taking scripture and comparing it with scripture. There are those who were saved and justified by faith before the physical Christ was on earth as Jesus. But they still knew God. Enoch walked with God. That means in some sense he must have known what God wanted and he never died. Going along with scripture I would assume that he knew Christ. Jesus said "he that lives and believes in Me shall never die " John 11:26 I never knew Enoch and I dont know Gods full ways. All I know is what His Word says. Thank you.
____________________
Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 09:07 am |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).
My friend I got this statement from the Faith Fact page you gave me. This is the teaching of the catholic church.
But you ignored the first part of the statement by Pope Pius IX:
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches, and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
Please ask your friend to read the entire statement rather than select only a part of it, and read it in the context of the entire Church teaching as expressed in the Catechism. Perhaps your friend would like to register here on his own.
This statement was issued by a pope, and indeed it makes up part of the source material that has been used in determining Catholic teaching, but like any non-infallible statement by any pope, it's only part of an overall picture.
The Catholic Church believes it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and that for those who know this to be true, it is required that they be Catholic to be saved. However, those who through lack of knowledge (what is known as "invincible ignorance") are not aware of such a requirement are not bound by it. In other words, since I know and accept the teachings of the Catholic Church, I must be Catholic to be saved. You do not know and accept the teachings of the Catholic faith, so you are not bound by that requirement.
I apologize if I misjudged you. That was not my intention. But I am a volunteer here and again, I have to leave for work so I can't respond any further at this time. Hopefully Juan or someone else will be able to provide you with additional information. Juan has already given you some scriptural references to back the Catholic contention, and I look forward to your answer to his response.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 10:15 am |
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Dear Mike,
Welcome to the Forum and for sincerely investigating questions that you have. I notice that you appear to respect scripture, that you are reading what the Catholic Church says about herself, and that you appear logical enough to identify what you don't understand.
Can you help us here understand better where you are "coming from"? How do you feel about the Bible? Is it an authority that you accept? Are there other sources of authority that you trust?
I hope this isn't too off-topic for the "born again" thread - but I do wonder how we can best make sense of the rationale behind salvation and conversion for you by first finding a place to start.
I notice too you describe yourself in your profile as "born again". Can you briefly describe what this means? I ask this because it means so many totally different things to different people.
thanks,
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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brian
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 01:44 pm |
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Mike, welcome to the forum. Please continue to ask your questions. The only way to know what we believe is to ask us directly and see if our answers also provide evidence that what we tell you is not our opinion but indeed church teaching. You also should seek more contact with official church teachings where you can find them.
You seem to be doing this and that is more than some non-catholics are willing to do. It does not bother me that they disagree with us, but that they do not at least seek to clarify their understanding of what we believe before saying negative things about us. I do not mind the negative things, so long as they are disagreements about actual teachings instead of arguing against worshipping Mary or re-sacrificing Christ in the mass, which we do not believe, but people tell us and others that we do.
People tell us we do not believe members of other religious communities may be saved. Now this is partly our fault for attitudes and teachings and beliefs of Catholics in the past, especially pre-vatican II. We are working and have worked to clarify what aspects we affirm about 'no salvation outside the church' and which were always false conclusions, namely, that only those visibly united to the Catholic Church while alive on earth can be saved.
I understand why people accuse us of this, because my parents tell me that they remember Catholics saying and believing things that you are showing concern about. That does not mean it was ever was our official teaching though.
But keep asking and challenging so that when you talk about our faith and consider its claims you will know more accurately what you are criticizing. I want to reach out to you as well as someone with a difficult history with Catholicism. I realize it takes a lot of time to sort out between things that certain portions of documents seem to say or imply vs. what they are saying as a whole vs. what other people say we mean vs. what your personal bias is. It takes a while to sort it out. I think it is really all about withholding judgment and taking a step back trying to put things in context; and then from time to time reassesssing what your conclusions may or may not be through prayer, honestly and sincerely trying to eliminate prejudice, fear, or other difficulties in one's analysis.
I see signs that you are doing this and I find it encouraging. I hope you will not be scared away from us (unless you do indeed want to fight moreso than dialogue) but dialouge, disagreement, and challenges are welcome if you are sincerely seeking. We do try to avoids hostility and debate here, and I am not sure of all the guidleines but I think healthy concern and questioning of the church is to be expected. Perhaps what you may want to avoid is saying that you find ther to be many 'falsehoods' or decalring that we are clearly in error on something. I hope a moderator will correct me if I am wrong, but I think it would go over acceptably if you said that you personally find a teaching to be difficult to believe or accept. That you think it is false, stating your reasons, and offering us the chance to qualify our beliefs. Perhaps we will find it difficult if you simply tell us we are wrong, or false, instead of trying to tell us from your perspective what you think truth is without directly opposing us or declaring us offically in error.
I realize that people are sensitive and sometimes entering into a dialouge does imply or assume that we are on differing sides and each believe the other to be false, but we ought find peaceable ways to work through disagreements with mutual respect.
I do not know what your intent was, but I will seek to give you the benefit of the doubt and trust you until you demonstrate otherwise. I wish you the best.
Brian
Last edited on Tue Jul 10th, 2007 05:20 pm by brian
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 06:31 am |
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Shalom juan. I just wanted to answer one question real quick then i got to get to someone else.
I wrote:
Then later says that the reward (or wages) of that sin is death. We are all guilty of breaking the law of God and if He is indeed a good God then we should expect a righteous judgment not based on who we are or what we say we do or dont know. But, on the contrary, the righteous judgement is based on what and who God is and how perfect His law and justice is. In other words the way the bible puts it is that he that knows Christ is not condemned but he that doesnt believe is condemned already.
You wrote:
Show me from Scripture, because this is what I read:
My references are romans chapter 6 concentrating on v.23. and John chapter 3:1-23 concentrating on vv. 18-19.
____________________
Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 07:08 am |
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Shalom tina. I am most joyful to share where I am coming from. First I grew up unchurched for the first 27 years of my life and eventually ended up a homeless crackhead. Then three years ago God, in His wonderful grace, called me out from under a bridge to save me. It took about a month for me to realize, from reading scripture, that I needed Jesus in my life. I realized that I was included in "all have sinned" Rom 6:23 and needed a savior. I also realized that i must be born again if I wish to see the kingdom of God. John chapter 3
As far as what i trust. Man is of a few days and full of trouble as Job says. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3;16-17 I trust no authority above God and His Word. I will take counsel, read commentaries, go to bible studies, talk here, and other truth seeking exercises. But I always come back to the Spirit, which God gave me, to guide me into all truth John 16:13.
If you or others are offended by the way I speak for or against one side or the other then there is unfortunately going to be a communication gap. As you can see I dont quote theologians or the such. I, for reason of letting scripture intepret itself, am avoiding it. But I even do this in "protestant evangelical circles". So I hope no one here feels like Im just out to get those stinkin catholics because my intent is to always be pressing on toward the higher calling of God. Philippians 3:12-14.
Thats just a brief description of myself and what my intentions are. Not to hurt people but to find out what they believe and why.
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Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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Sindone
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| Joined: | Sat Jul 7th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Sindon | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | RC...rc...RC |
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 09:18 am |
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Dear Mike, I am new to this forum, but welcome. I am a born and practicing Catholic. I my prvious years, I met many good friends who were evangelicals but from my experience, they really have a lot of misconceptions of the RC Church. I am not saying that you are. But I am very glad that you show so much intention to know more in details.
I would suggest you search, read, and keep asking. Read about Scott Hahn, you might get a lot of answers from someone with similar background. You know a lot of Scriptures, and I believe you have high regard for Holy Scriptures. I am not an expert in explaining everything to you. But please do know that the Scriptures you are holding did come from the Church. God did give us the Scriptures though the Church, or more precisely, the early Church Fathers. You must read the Scriptures from the mind of the Church Fathers. The early Church knew no division because they could understand what the actual meaning is.
God does not deceive, neither is He deceived. Jesus guaranteed the protection of the Church to St Peter, and we believe He does, till the end of times.
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 272 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 10:17 am |
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Dear Mike, Thanks for the story. whew. God Bless you! I didn't get the impression you were out to get "da' shhtinkin' katlicks" but thanks for the clarification anyway. We do try to keep the discussions civil here while recognizing that emotions play a large part.
I am happy that you are moving forward and recognize the need for God. We are here for that same reason. Don't be surprised to find that you are not in an isolated journey, although it feels that way - we all are going through the same thing. We just exhibit differing degrees of the same traits and many have gone through exactly what you are doing now. Not out from under a bridge exactly, but that is a metaphor for my life too. When Christ calls us, we must answer. When we look back, we then recognize the bleakness of that old life without love for Jesus.
To reiterate what Sindon said, you know that the Bible you are using came from the Catholic Church, right?
And "theologians" with whom you are not yet familiar, intently studied Scripture. Some, known as the "desert fathers" actually went into the desert to avoid all distractions as they meditated on God and His teachings. The early Church fathers also had much to say - these guys knew the people who had been taught by Apostles or Disciples so their information is considered most accurate. Because of your sincere search, you would probably take great delight in investigating their commentaries.
Oh yeah, I meant to ask, when you say 'born again' does this include having been baptized with water in the name of the Trinity? Or is it more of a simple "turning to God"?
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 180 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 12:59 pm |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: We are all guilty of breaking the law of God and if He is indeed a good God then we should expect a righteous judgment not based on who we are or what we say we do or dont know. But, on the contrary, the righteous judgement is based on what and who God is and how perfect His law and justice is. In other words the way the bible puts it is that he that knows Christ is not condemned but he that doesnt believe is condemned already.
It doesn't seem like Paul says that in his letter to the Romans. Our judgment, he writes, is based on our actions and deeds. Romans 2:6-8 reads "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." It is not enough to simply have knowledge of or belief in Christ, for a man who calls himself a Christian yet lives on in his life of adultery or theft is not righteous in Jesus Christ and will not enter the kingdom of Heaven (cf. 1 Cor 6:8-10).
No where in Scripture does it say that we are free to commit sin -- so long as we believe in Jesus! -- because his life of supreme goodness will be "substituted" for our life of evil when we are judged. No! On the contrary, we are obligated to live better than that (cf. 1 Peter 1:17b).
Jesus paid a price for us (cf. 1 Cor 6:20, 7:23); his blood was our ransom (cf. 1 Peter 1:17-19); his crucifixion was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices, for it was the perfect one, fulfilling the sacrificial law of the Old Covenant and beginning the lasting sacrifice of the New Covenant. The previous covenants were made in the blood of animals, and required blood sacrifice over and over again (cf. Leviticus 16, especially 16:34). The New and Lasting Covenant is made in the blood of Jesus Christ himself, shed once for all (cf. Hebrews 7:26-27). The crucifixion of Jesus, as the act of supreme love and self-sacrifice, does not take the place of our wickedness, it pays the price for it.
"God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) But Jesus came to call sinners to repentence (cf. Luke 5:32), not just call sinners to know about him. An unrepentant Christian is refusing half of Jesus's call; you cannot have Jesus as Savior without also having Jesus as Lord.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 746 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 12th, 2007 04:44 am |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: Shalom tina. I am most joyful to share where I am coming from. First I grew up unchurched for the first 27 years of my life and eventually ended up a homeless crackhead. Then three years ago God, in His wonderful grace, called me out from under a bridge to save me. It took about a month for me to realize, from reading scripture, that I needed Jesus in my life.
As far as what i trust. Man is of a few days and full of trouble as Job says. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3;16-17 I trust no authority above God and His Word. I will take counsel, read commentaries, go to bible studies, talk here, and other truth seeking exercises. But I always come back to the Spirit, which God gave me, to guide me into all truth John 16:13.
As you can see I dont quote theologians or the such. I, for reason of letting scripture intepret itself, am avoiding it.
First of all, let me say that it was great to hear of God's power working in your life.
Now I see that you have a high repect for Scripture. So I will try to use Scripture to challenge the way you seem to use it. I want to suggest to you that Scripture actually would lead us to trust in an authority outside of itself. I want you to think about what Scripture really is telling us in these passages about the Church and how it is actually and ironically unscriptural to believe in the Bible without trusting in the Church, since the Bible would encourage us to walk in light of the Church's authority in harmony with what the Bible teaches.
I would challenge you to answer where in Scripture does it say that an individual or independent church can accurately interpret Scripture? Where in Scripture does it say that only Scripture is authoritative in our lives? Why if we are to live by Scripture can no two churches or individuals seem to really understand and agree with what it says even when both are God loving Spirit filled born again Christians? If it were obvious how to live by and obey and what to believe about the Bible how is it that we are so divided? Tell me what you think these verses may imply about the need for human authority in regards to living our faith.
1 Timothy 3: 14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Matthew 16: 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
1 Thessalonians 3: So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings [ Or traditions] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter
John 20: 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Matthew 18: 15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
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So if we look at what Scripture says, it seems to tell us that humans (though not just any) were given an authority to bind and loose. It calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. It tells us to sort out disputes within the Church. It tells us the gates of hell will never prevail against it. It tells us human beings were given authority to forgive sins. It acknowledges taditions to be followed that may not have been written down.
If you seek to believe all the Bible teaches how can you do so without believing in an apostolic authority to bind and loose and interpret Scripture. How can Christianity make sense and the gates of hell have not prevailed if it is impossible to know what was intended due to divisions? How can we believe so many different things when we use scripture alone when Jesus prayed that we would be united? Are you smart enough to accurately interpret all that the Bible means? And if so, how can you be sure? If it is up to you and you are mislead or lacking understanding on some key issues how will you know how serious your offense is?
I think to believe the Bible is to trust the Catholic Church. Do you know that the Catholic Church chose which books were in and out through our traditions and councils? To accept scripture itself as authoritative is to accept the wisdom of an authority that comes outside of scripture. The book did not just fall out of the sky and the church did not just get lucky. In order to even accept the books you accept you have to trust the Church's authority or else you would never have the very book you use to discredit us. And if we did choose the books that go in the Bible why would we pick books that so clearly undermine our own teaching? Obviously we chose the books because they were inspired and contained precisely what we do and always have and always will believe.
Anyway, I am respectfully seeing if I can get you to consider Catholic concepts using the source that we both hold to be inspired and authoritative. I would be interested in hearing how you follow or interpret these passages and why it makes sense that the Church should be divided over a book that is supposed to be clear enough that we can live by it without seeking to outside help. You will notice that passage you mentioned in 2 Timothy does not say that only Scripture is authoritative. And that verse could only be referring to Old Testament scriptures when it was written because the New Testament had not been canonized as of then. Also you mention that you trust the Spirit to be your teacher, yet so many people do exactly as you say and they are led to believe different things on key issues. How is this working then? Are they all wrong and you all right? Also I see you did acknowledge that you do seek some truth outside of Scripture but like to go back to it as your ultimate and highest authority. This is why I tried to use only scr | | |
