 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 803 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 02:50 am |
|
Thought I would repost the question he stated in case he or anybody else wanted to discuss it or help explain to him what we believe about this matter. Forgive me if I should not have posted...
---------------
"Wow I got so many people talking to me at once it is crazy. And unfortunately I will never be able to respond to everything that people write. So I will just now ask basic questions and take the response I get."
"First, How does a person get to heaven?"
|
|
|
wvnlyjstbgn
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jul 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 25 |
| First Name: | mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | born again John 3 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 05:20 am |
|
| Great idea. Thank you.
____________________
Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 186 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 08:29 am |
|
We "get to heaven" by the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
There are ordinary means to that grace and extraordinary means to that grace. Consider the "good thief" on the cross with Jesus: we have no record of his being "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), nor of his "confess[ing] that Jesus is Lord [and believing] that God raised him from the dead" (Romans 10:9), nor that he sold everything he had and followed Jesus so as to "have treasure in heaven" (Matthew 19:21). And yet, Jesus said to that man, "today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
What little we do know about him (Luke 23:39-43) is this:- he was a criminal (v39-40)
- he was being executed for crimes he committed (v41)
- he was receiving the proper justice for his crimes (v41)
- he rebuked the other criminal who insulted Jesus (v40)
- he recognized the innocence of Jesus (v41)
- he said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom" (v42)
Now, I should remind you that not every Jew had the right idea about what the Messiah, the Christ of God, would do when he arrived. Previous Messiahs had been kings (like David) or liberators (like Cyrus). When the first criminal says "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" (v39) he is speaking in very temporal immediate terms -- "save us from this execution". It is possible that the second criminal (the "good thief") did have the proper understanding of what the Messiah truly was -- I mean, he knew Jesus was hanging there to die and yet he asks to be remembered when he comes into his kingdom.
But is this the ordinary way for us to get to heaven? It seems rather extraordinary to me.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 281 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 09:24 am |
|
We get to heaven by the intervention of God, i.e. Grace.
That undeserved gift of Grace is amplified by our good works. If we do not respond to Grace, if we ignore it and remain obstinate in turning away from God's call, we lose heaven.
Grace wins us heaven if we respond with our free will and act accordingly.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 186 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 09:52 am |
|
Tina in Ashburn wrote: We get to heaven by the intervention of God, i.e. Grace.
That undeserved gift of Grace is amplified by our good works. If we do not respond to Grace, if we ignore it and remain obstinate in turning away from God's call, we lose heaven.
Grace wins us heaven if we respond with our free will and act accordingly.
Because I anticipate a negative reaction to "Grace is amplified by our good works", I offer the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30:
"For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. "He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. "Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, `Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.' "And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, `Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.' "He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, `Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'"
God gives us grace; what we do with it is up to us. If we respond, we shall receive grace in even more abundance. This Scripture passages is one basis for the Catholic understanding of Justification. We do not merit the initial grace that comes to us in any way, shape, or form -- lest we should boast, as Paul would say -- but our life in that grace grants us grace upon grace.
Last edited on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 10:09 am by japhy
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 803 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 01:42 pm |
|
To me it seems that works do not play a role in gaining salvation for a Catholic, so much as walking in it, or deepening one's salvific bond and intimacy with God. Salvation is indeed by grace. It is grace that enables us and inspires us to believe and to act in accordance with that belief. To me it is a mystery as to how much God takes us and how much our free will must take us. I think works are important in that they keep us growing and thriving in our faith.
I think a Catholic is not merely concerned with "am I saved" but our concern is more "how do I grow even more in holiness moved by God's grace?" It is more about the presnet moment. Not wanting to do the minimum but wanting to live the joy of slavation and pursue freedom in the here and now. We do not have as much of a view of something already accomplished to rest in because we see danger in that approach (though we do believe that we have been saved, are being saved, and if we persevere will be saved; so we do have the view of salvation as a past event, but we do not stop here for the bible has verses speaking of all three tenses of salvation and justification). We do not think we need to earn salvation, but we do think it is importnat to pursue perfection for we will have to attain it one way or another, and it is commanded.
I think we see salvation more in terms of being in friendship with God. It seems to me that it is not about doing enough good works so much as it is about maintaining that state of grace that we are given at Baptism or after confession. It is more about avoiding mortal sin than it is about doing anything to earn anything. We are placed in a savinig relationship with God through his kindness (grace) and we simply need to accept his love and believe in Him. So essentially salvation is freely given to us, and we need to accept it and not throw it away, for we do believe we can turn away from God, and I think the Bible can support this. So works are more a way of deepening our life in God so that we would be more and more unlikely to commit mortal sin. But works do not earn anything (in regard to being saved) so much as gain us even more graces to become holier thus more secure in our salvation. But even any works we do are of course enabled by grace.
To a protestant I would say we have in common a few things. The notion that one must admit he is a sinner and live a life of repentance for that sin and turn away from it. Realize that Jesus died for His sins and that his blood is the only thing that can make atonement for them. Ask for this forgiveness. Believe He rose from the dead and follow Jesus as Lord of one's life trying to live his teachings as best we can, ultimately trusting in God's mercy and not our good works to forgive us each time we fall. Essentially it all centers around Christ. He saves us if we do what we need to do to ask Him for this gift and continually seek to be justified by His blood.
To a Catholic this may look like, geting baptized where we are first given salvation by grace, coming to believe and accept Jesus as Lord and belieiving His teachings in our hearts at some point of life, continuing to ask for forgiveness of sins and seeking to grow in intimacy through going to mass and confession and through daily prayer and good works.
The thing is, we believe that we neeed to keep on going, that we are already saved, but we need to live up to it. It is not over yet. We may have confidence that if we died today we would be able to go to heaven (unless we are unaware of mortal sin which I think is difficult) but we do not know where we will be in 10 years so we keep striving to grow closer. To me this is where the path to heaven lies. In trying to get as close as we can while on earth. It is not about a bargain or deal with God, it is not about getting something, it is about relationship. Wanting the most of God and the least of the flesh as we can each moment. It is a here and now thing. It is always growing and deepening. There are certain principles that are the same for each of us. To repent and believe the gospel. But for some the path may be filled with different vocations and sufferings to sanctify us and get us all the way safely to the end. To be sure, we know we need to strive to live our faith that because saving faith must actually be active and not dead, but to be more sure, we never have or will believe that apart from the mercy of God and the life of Jesus that we can or could have ever earned salvation by being good enough people. None of us are good enough, and all are justified by grace through faith.
hope I have not done a terible job with this. It is a topic I want to be able to explain better because the question comes up here and there, and I may keep giving this answer, so If I am missing something or overemphasizing or underemphasizing something or am wrong about something someone please let me know.
As far as the bible goes verses I would use to demonstrate the importance of works in proving our faith to be real would be Matthew 25, James 2, 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling' the parable of the rich man where Jesus inded affirms that obeying commandments is a necessary part of gaining eternal life, and then for hat man, selling all his possesions would help (this shows that to each we may be called to obey in different ways). There is also a verse in Romans 2 saying those who seek good will go on to eternal life. Jesus consistently says that it is not about calling him Lord, but actually DOING what he commands that abides in Him and maintains his love. So the bible does not underemhasize works and obedience as being necessary. So indeed they are necessary in some way. I think it is evangelicals who take a few passages out of context and build a view of salvation thaty is too easy and herfore potentially dangerous if one does not realize that 'he who perseveres to the end will be saved.'
Here is the concept that helped me a lot in regards to passages that seem to speak negatively about works in Romans and Ephesians 2 and Titus 3. I think they are speaking of trusting in works to save us instead of God's grace. They fight the heresy that we can be good enough people to warrant God's grace. That he forgives us because we do enough for him. Specifically I believe they are arguing against believing in following the Jewish system of justifying oneself through obeying and doing the works of the Torah. They must be seen in contrast to works of charity enabled trough a saving relationship with Chrsit, which Ephesians 2 seems to affirm that we are indeed saved 'for good works' so if you trust in the works without the grace salvation is not possible, but if you trust in the grace without working in cooperation with it, you also might not be saved. But Paul is not saying that works are unnecessary, just that they do not earn salvation, and that the system of the Torah without grace can not save somebody. You can see from reading all his teachings that he himself believed he needed to strive to attain it all the way to the end, and that he wrote to Chrstian believers that they might not receive grace in vain. To me one must strive to keep the whole Bible in context. This is why I am thankful for the church because I would not trust myself or any other human to do it for me. I am glad I can look into the matter myself and see if the churches explanations make sense to me, or do not contradict scripture, but ultimately I need the Holy Spirit to guide me, andI think following that guidance I have been led to the safety of the Catholic Church where we do not hide any portion of scripture but seek to keep them all in context with the others.
Brian
|
|
|
JasPax
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 04:42 pm |
|
Hello All,
The following is my opinion only:
As directed by Rick, Mike asked a simple, straightforward question: "How does a person get to heaven?" He is an inquirerer who was bombarded with loooong answers previously.
Both japhy and Tina gave simple, accurate, straightforward answers. IMO
Brian, I don't think your response is all that inaccurate, but maybe it is a bit too philosophical (and complicated) for this particular question, in this particular thread. No offense intended.
Best Regards,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 803 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 17th, 2007 11:53 pm |
|
JasPax wrote: Hello All,
The following is my opinion only:
As directed by Rick, Mike asked a simple, straightforward question: "How does a person get to heaven?" He is an inquirerer who was bombarded with loooong answers previously.
Both japhy and Tina gave simple, accurate, straightforward answers. IMO
Brian, I don't think your response is all that inaccurate, but maybe it is a bit too philosophical (and complicated) for this particular question, in this particular thread. No offense intended.
Best Regards,
I would agree with you. It definitely is. Maybe I should edit it in case it has not been read yet. However, I also think that in case anybody else reads the thread who does want a more in depth explanation maybe it would be useful to them. I mean, this is a topic that is important for all of us to better understand (self included). And remember I am somewhere between an inquirer and a helper of inquirers as a frsh convert this year, therfore part of what I am trying to do is help others, but part of what I am also here for is to learn the faith myself so I can live it and pass it on.
Plus I ythink that it is difficult for me to simplfy this matter when as Catholics we tend to have a more in depth view on such a question as opposed to reading a gospel tract saying the sinners prayer and then thinknig everything will definitely be fine.
Still, I know that I need to stay more focused on the specific goal and audience when I write and I take the critique in all humility.
Brian
|
|
|
wvnlyjstbgn
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jul 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 25 |
| First Name: | mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | born again John 3 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 05:33 am |
|
Thanks Brian that was what I wanted to hear. I believe I have already shown I dont believe that but that was a pretty good response. The scary part is that it almost sounds like AG doctrine. My wife goes to an AG church. Well I do too. I dont believe that married people should go to different churches. And she is the childrens pastor there. But the only difference is that AG people believe they can lose there salvation by giving it up and denying God by unchecked sin and loss of faith. Of course to me that sounds like works.
On the same note does a person that "never heard" but does Gods will get into heaven? And/or do people from other religions even though they have heard Jesus Christ is the messiah have a chance to get into heaven?
I really actually like the long responses. Long as they keep to the topic and are scripturally backed up as opposed to opinion. I think you did a pretty good job with this brian. Thank you.
____________________
Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
|
|
|
japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 186 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 10:57 am |
|
wvnlyjstbgn wrote: AG people believe they can lose there salvation by giving it up and denying God by unchecked sin and loss of faith. Of course to me that sounds like works.
As James wrote in his letter, "faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (James 2:17). He didn't say faith without works isn't (or wasn't ever) faith at all, he said it's dead faith, which means it was once living faith.
In his first letter to Corinth (early in his Christian life) and his second letter to Timothy (very late in his Christian life), Paul likens this life to a race: "Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it." (1 Cor 9:24) "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." (2 Timothy 4:7) A race is not decided at the beginning, it is decided at the end. You must keep pace and endure throughout the race in order to finish first. Hebrews 12:1 echoes this sentiment: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
Also notice Paul's difference in tone: early in his life, he implores the Corinthians to run the race of this life so as to win the prize; late in his life, he says to Timothy that he has done that. At the end of his life, throughout all the persecutions and tribulations, he has kept the faith. He was not so brash as to say that at the beginning of his life as a Christian, lest he be disqualified later in life (cf. 1 Cor 9:27; 1 Cor 10:2; Gal 6:1). Again, Hebrews 2:1 echoes this sentiment: "Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it."
wvnlyjstbgn wrote: On the same note does a person that "never heard" but does Gods will get into heaven? And/or do people from other religions even though they have heard Jesus Christ is the messiah have a chance to get into heaven?
I think it is clear that those who reject Jesus or reject his Gospel will not enter heaven: those who deny Jesus on earth will be denied by Jesus at the judgment (cf. Matthew 10:32-33).
What happened, then, to the people living outside the area Jesus and his apostles were preaching? What happened to the people who died in A.D. 40 in Australia, South America, North America, parts of Africa and Europe and Asia? I don't know, because I'm not God and God hasn't told me. I'm not assured they have salvation, so I won't say they were saved, but I'm not God and I don't know if He made His son known to them in an extraordinary way (the ordinary way being the intervention of humans). The Catholic Church recognizes something called "invincible ignorance" which (basically) means that a man never hears the gospel through no fault of his own. We don't know what happens to such people; we trust in God's mercy and justice, and know He will do what is right.
What it comes down to (for me) is this: Jesus commanded his disciples to make disciples of all the nations (Matthew 28:18-20), and that's our job today. It's not our job to pass judgment on the nations we haven't reached for Christ yet, and it's not our job to wait for the end of the world to come instead of preaching to those who have not heard.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
|
|
|
Current time is 12:17 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
