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Dan Bryan
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 12:57 pm |
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Intro: economy (oikonomia) definition: primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it.... .........continued here:
http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=766
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=economy
In trying to attempt the understanding of the term ‘economy’ in various applications with in the Catechism, I am at a loss as to the proper interpretation or understanding of the use.
Catechism – on the word ‘economy’ there are more than 34 locations in the volume where the word is used not to directly correlated to trade an commerce.
It does not seem to take on the meaning of the tithe, offering and reciprocity principles laid out throughout the Bible text in any of the following references.
Catechism References
56 ‘divine economy’ - Rainbow/Covenant
57 ‘provisional economy’ (I cannot decipher what is trying to be said here)
66 ‘Christian economy’ - as a new Covenant
122 ‘the economy of the Old Testament’ - prepare and declare in prophecy
236 economy (oikonomia) - to all the works by which God reveals himself
258 ‘divine economy’ - work of the three divine persons
259 ‘divine economy’ - what is proper to the divine persons
260 ‘divine economy’ - our perfect unity with the Blessed Trinity
685 ‘divine economy’ – in context of further definition of the Holy Trinity, ex-post the Father and Son.
705 ‘economy of salvation’ – Inaugurated by the promise made to Abraham
1040 ‘economy of salvation’ – We shall know the ultimate meaning of
1066 ‘economy of salvation’ = ‘economy of the Word incarnate’ = ‘plan of the mystery’ (I cannot decipher what is trying to be said here)
1076 ‘sacramental economy’ - (I do not understand the equation or context)
1092 ‘economy of salvation’ - prepares encounter of Lord; makes Christ manifest to the assembly.
1093 ‘sacramental economy’ the Holy Spirit fulfills what was prefigured in the Old Covenant.
1095 ‘economy of salvation’ - catechesis help the faithful to open themselves to this spiritual understanding of
1103 ‘economy of Revelation’ - realized by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other. . . – another mystery
1135 ‘sacramental economy’ - The catechesis of the liturgy entails first of all an understanding of the..
1159 ‘economy of images’ - sacred image of the Son of God
1168 ‘economy of salvation’ – (I do not understand the equation or context)
2131 ‘economy of images’ - By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced…
2425 ‘economy’ – (is used here in the traditional sense of barter and trade)
2431 ‘economy’ – (is used here in the traditional sense of barter and trade)
2541 ‘economy of law and grace’ - turns men's hearts away from avarice and envy
2604 ‘economy of salvation’ - The priestly prayer of Jesus holds a unique place in..
2606 ‘economy of creation and salvation’ - You are my Son, today I have begotten you..
2619 ‘economy of salvation’ - song of thanksgiving for the fullness of graces poured out in..
2641 ‘economy of salvation’ - Doxology, the praise of God, arises from this "marvelous work" of the whole.
2651 ‘economy of salvation’ - believers who treasure in their hearts the events and words of the
2666 ‘economy of creation and salvation’ - The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole
2738 ‘economy of salvation’ - The revelation of prayer in the
2746 ‘economy of creation and salvation’ - His prayer, the longest transmitted by the Gospel, embraces the whole
2758 ‘economy of creation and salvation’ - Jesus, rightly called the "priestly prayer" (cf. Jn 17), sums up the whole
2808 ‘his economy’ - In the decisive moments of …. God reveals his name
2850 ‘economy of salvation’ - The Lord's Prayer continually opens us to the range of God's..
In the late 60’s – early 70’s it was business cliché describing all things whether economic or not using the word 'Economic' or 'Economy'. Could this have been the basis for the writer’s or editors use of the word Economy, examples below?
Economy of force
Economy of scale
Oil Economy
World Economy
Mixed Economy of Welfare
War Time Economy
Economic development is an economy business
Free Trade Economy
Inflation Economy
Depressed Economy
Eco-Economy
Economic Growth Index
Full employment Economy
Economic Slowdown
Please provide any insight you can provide?
Or add another Catatechism topic defining the ‘mystery’ of the word ‘economy’? The mystery may be discribed here?..... http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/reception_of_converts.htm
Thanks,
Dan Bryan
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Be anxious for nothing; we make our own plans, but the Lord determines our steps..............Bible
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 02:13 pm |
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Dan, the way I see it is that CCC 236 is the foundational definition: “economy” in the Catechism means either the common and popular English monetary definition (as in the section on social justice) or the relations of God ad extra, that is, to his creation.
You ask specifically about the interpretation of CCC 57. Here it refers to the antecedent in 56, where you see it referring to God’s covenant with Noah. This covenant is “provisional” in the sense that it is not the definitive covenant later established by Christ. As with any relationship between God and man, this one is threatened by the perverse paganism of Babel, a sign of the sin and evil which opposes God in all times since our parents’ fall in the garden of Eden.
Next, the interpretation of CCC 1066. Here, “economy” refers to God’s relations with men through his Son, the Word incarnate. The “plan of the mystery” (RSV and NAB) is rendered differently in other versions. The verse reads more sensibly, for instance, in the DRV and Novus Vulgatus, “to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God who created all things.” This would better correspond to the intention of the Catechism, for “dispensation” is a term ad extra, whereas “plan” is an internal operation (theologia).
It also corresponds with CCC 1076, which you subsequently question. This paragraph explains the manner in which the Church is involved in the divine economy through its liturgy and sacraments, for it communicates grace to those who receive them. The mechanism of exchange here is the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ.
CCC 1168 is simply another application of the term explained in 1076. I notice that in subsequent applications of the same term you consistently misinterpret. Perhaps this is due to your Protestant background, which in general does not hold to the divine agency of the Church.
Contrary to your surmise based on the secular use of the word “economy,” apart from the obvious application in the section on social justice, all application of the word in the Catechism is directly traceable to Catholic patristic and theological tradition and should be interpreted according to the definition given in CCC 236. Even the application given in your link to an article on Orthodox acceptation of “heterodox baptism” is derived from the same definition; its question is, “How does God operate through those not visibly joined to the true Church?” This is clearly a matter of divine economy in the traditional sense.
David
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Dan Bryan
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 10:48 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Dan, the way I see it is that CCC 236 is the foundational definition: ............or the relations of God ad extra, that is, to his creation.
Dear David,
Thank you for your reply.
To clarify my post better, I do not understand any application of that word 'economic' in a non-financial sense as used in the Catechism. I listed them in the manner shown for quick reference.
Items CCC 57, 1066, 1076, 1168 was totally incomprehensible so therefore there is no misinterpretation as there was/is no cognitive basis.
You said “economy” in the Catechism means …… the relations of God ad extra, that is, to his creation. (Did you intend to use ab-extra as opposed to ad-extra?)
I would like to ask you to redress further, deeper into the foundation. Though our explanations tell me you understand the subject, I need more simplification. If CCC 236 is the key descriptor it is in the language or jargon of the RCC and does not make sense to me .....…...
So, please dissect CCC 236 for me, as if I were 10 or 12 years old.
I’m sure simplification would be needed on your part if I were to attempt to explain Atomic, Molecular & Chemical Physics related to collision phenomena that results, when hydrogen atoms collide. (maybe-not?)
Thanks again,
Dan Bryan
Last edited on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 11:51 pm by Dan Bryan
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Be anxious for nothing; we make our own plans, but the Lord determines our steps..............Bible
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 11:57 pm |
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Dan Bryan wrote:Did you intend to use ab-extra as opposed to ad-extra?
My Latin isn’t perfect, so I checked. “Ad extra” is correct: toward the outside, without; as opposed to “ad intra,” which is toward the inside, within. “Ab extra” is a legal and financial term, not a theological term. It refers to incoming monies, funds received. Theologically, we use the term ad extra to speak of whatever is “outside” of God, namely, creation. And this is how I defined it.
Traditionally, according to CCC 236, the Fathers of the Church speak of theologia, what goes on within the Godhead, and oikonomia, the relation between God and his creation.
Theology (to use the English term instead of the Greek) therefore has to do with God’s inner life, the dynamics of the Trinity of Persons in the unity of the Godhead. The Father begets the Son; the Spirit proceeds between them; etc.
Economy, meanwhile, has to do with how God reveals himself (creation, providence, direct revelation) and communicates his life (e.g., indwelling of the Holy Spirit). God’s communication can also be made through secondary, created means: sacrament, grace, salvation.
In this way, we can speak of an “economy of salvation,” meaning “how God saves us from our sins and brings us to the glory and intimacy of heaven.”
The two parts or terms of this conceptualization (theology and economy) are then explained in terms of a person and his actions. Who a person is is evident from what he does, and what a person is determines what he does. For this reason the definition states that “through the oikonomia the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia.”
None of this is easy. The universal Catechism is written for adults, not 10 year olds, and I can’t change that.
None of this is easy. The Catechism is attempting in this section to describe the Trinity — Father, Son and Holy Spirit — which is a mystery and therefore not something we are going to be able to comprehend and define. But we can know through faith something of how this works; not to know everything does not mean we cannot know anything.
None of this is easy. The Catechism is preparing to speak of God’s creation, of his relation to created things and in particular to mankind. Again, this is a mystery. But we can know through faith something of how this works.
Items CCC 57, 1066, 1076, 1168 were totally incomprehensible, so therefore there is no misinterpretation as there was/is no cognitive basis.
This is why I chose to discuss them last round. It was a lot easier than working through the other 30 instances.
David
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Dan Bryan
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 03:34 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Traditionally, according to CCC 236, the Fathers of the Church speak of theologia, what goes on within the Godhead, and oikonomia, the relation between God and his creation.
Dear David,
In the original post title I asked a question {is Oikonomia}
‘The moral value system of the Catholic Church or other Christian churches?’
And from what I gather from your latest, that the answer to this question appears to be no.
Fr Stefan Hippler once said: “Oikonomia means the application of God’s unconditional love for people in a certain situation by accepting the standing rules which are overwritten in these (various-db) circumstances.”
Is this a true statement or only partial in addition to your comments?
What I am attempting to do is look for another word that could be applied in place of ‘economic’ so that in reading I do not have to reflect on the ‘long answer’ to gain understanding of the CCC in general. As I can now see there is no easy way and possibly impossible in light of the Trinity Doctrine.
Thanks very much for your kind care and consideration,
Dan Bryan
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Be anxious for nothing; we make our own plans, but the Lord determines our steps..............Bible
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 04:38 pm |
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You two are talking WAY over my head, but I do find the dictionary can clarify things like this. I found this on dictionary.com, 8th definition of economy:
8.
Theology.
a.
the divine plan for humanity, from creation through redemption to final beatitude.
b.
the method of divine administration, as at a particular time or for a particular race.
That has NOTHING to do with money at all!
If this helps, well, I'll be glad. Otherwise, carry on and I'll do my best to follow the discussion.
Jill
Last edited on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 04:39 pm by JillD
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 11:59 pm |
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JillD wrote:
If this helps, well, I'll be glad. Otherwise, carry on and I'll do my best to follow the discussion.
It works for me, Jill. Dictionaries are useful tools.
Dan Bryan wrote:In the original post title I asked a question {is Oikonomia}
‘The moral value system of the Catholic Church or other Christian churches?’
And from what I gather from your latest, that the answer to this question appears to be no.
That is correct. The word has to do with the relation of God to his creation, and to man in particular, not on a moral level, but on the level of grace. It is not a system or code of a body of believers, but a living reality.
Fr Stefan Hippler once said: “Oikonomia means the application of God’s unconditional love for people in a certain situation by accepting the standing rules which are overwritten in these (various-db) circumstances.”
Is this a true statement or only partial in addition to your comments?
I am unfamiliar with Fr. Hippler, so I looked him up. According to the information I found, it seems he is a pro-gay dissident. His “definition” of oikonomia seems slanted to that end, and to that extent I would consider it invalid.
What I am attempting to do is look for another word that could be applied in place of ‘economic’ so that in reading I do not have to reflect on the ‘long answer’ to gain understanding of the CCC in general. As I can now see there is no easy way and possibly impossible in light of the Trinity Doctrine.
This was the upshot of my previous post.
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Sep 28th, 2007 01:12 am |
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Last edited on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 04:44 am by Intercessor
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japhy
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Posted: Sun Sep 30th, 2007 01:28 pm |
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The same CCC has a glossary in the back, which includes an entry on "Economy [of Salvation]".
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Sep 30th, 2007 02:52 pm |
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japhy wrote: The same CCC has a glossary in the back, which includes an entry on "Economy [of Salvation]".
The Glossary is also available online at the USCCB web site. The link is referenced in the first post of the RCIA forum.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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