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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Midland, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | C of C, Wicca, Satanist, Atheist, Agnostic, Baptist, Unity, and ... |
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 01:49 am |
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To All,
I was discussing excommunication with some of my friends. We came up with some questions that I have been trying to find answers for.
1. If a Catholic is excommunicated we read in the papers and websites we searched that the mark of baptism of the excommunicated Catholic is indelible. So does this mean if someone is excommunicated and they die, are they out of the state of God's grace?
2. We agreed that excommunicationg effectively cut the person off that was excommunicated from the Sacrements of the Catholic Church. [NOTE: if any of the reasoning is wrong in question 2 please let me know]. We also came to an agreement that Sacrements are forms of God's grace, we were not sure if we made a huge jump there. Therefore if we are cut of from the Sacrements we are cut off from God' grace, is this correct?
3. We read the excommunicated priests can perform the Sacrement of Reconcilliation to any in danger of dying? This does not make sense and we were wondering why? Now what if an excommunicated person was dying, can they make a confession or must they die unforgiven? To me I did not understand where God's mercy would come in this circumstance.
4. If one is excommunicated does that mean they will go to Hell becuase they are barred from God's grace?
5. There is a form of excommunication that calls for the excommunication to be shunned by the believers? Where and how if that excommunicated person repents can he let anyone know about it if he is being shunned? Is this not oppositonal to mercy?
I am sure that more questions will come up. I asked my friend why she was wondering about excommunication and she said becuase no one really knew about it. I told her that I am aware that the Church does excommunicate but never individuals, am I write in this area. I think the only time when excommunications are doled out by the Church is when they involve peeps that have acess to other peeps or are in positons of leadership or role models of the CC.
Thanks for reading this.
Anne
P.S. I just realized I mispelled the heading or subject, how can I edit the subject line?
Last edited on Tue Nov 6th, 2007 01:50 am by rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 08:47 am |
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You misunderstand excommunication.
Literally, excommunication means "from the communion", and it means that the Church officially recognizes that a person has chosen to separate himself from the Body of Christ. For example, a doctor who performs abortions has voluntarily chosen, by his actions, to leave the Church. Excommunication is a formal recognition of that act. Many more people have informally excommunicated themselves through invalid marriages, failure to attend mass, etc.
A formal excommunication is a response to a public act. Excommunications are normally handled privately (no public announcement) and when a person is informed that he has been excommunicated, he must seek the forgiveness of the person issuing the decree of excommunication before returning to the sacrament. Thus, a priest cannot lift a decree of excommunication issued by a bishop; a bishop cannot lift a decree from the Vatican. But most excommunications, such as for an invalid marriage, can be lifted by any priest once the conditions leading to the excommunication have ceased to exist. (Marital impediments can be resolved through the Tribunal process, or by the death of a prior spouse.)
At no time does the Church command us to "shun" anyone. The Church's attitude is always "love the sinner, hate the sin". Nor does the Church command anyone not to attend mass. In fact, even in a state of excommunication, the obligation to attend mass remains.
As for your question about excommunicated priests, they are still priests. They no longer have faculties ("permission") to administer the sacraments in normal circumstances, but they still carry the indelible mark of their ordination. "You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek" (Ps 110:4). The same is true of laicized priests (those who have been freed of their vows). They are allowed to exercise their ministry only if they encounter someone in immediate danger of death, such as an accident victim, and no other priest is available. They are still bound by the seal of the confessional.
And finally, excommunication is a response and recognition of a person's own acts. It is not a condemnation to hell, or a restriction on God's grace. The Church is a Divine institution made up of human beings and, except in limited circumstances, can make mistakes. The leaders of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches excommunicated each other in 1054; those excommunications were later reversed. Separation from the Church's sacraments is a serious matter, but better to be separated than to receive unworthily. Just as canonization will not take someone in hell and make them a saint, excommunication will not take someone destined for heaven and send them to hell. That is not within the Church's power.
And as for your last paragraph, the Church does indeed excommunicate individuals, but again, only those who have already separated themselves from the teachings and beliefs of the Church. The purpose is to warn other Catholics not to follow their teachings, not to "punish" the unfaithful Catholic.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Midland, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | C of C, Wicca, Satanist, Atheist, Agnostic, Baptist, Unity, and ... |
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 09:54 am |
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Rick,
I am so relieved that grace is present in excommunication and that forgiveness is extended. Yeah I guess we did misunderstand excommunication. I kinda felt wierd asking these questions to my spiritual director as he would have wanted to know what prompted these questions. Thanks for the answers.
In Him,
Anne
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Cindy
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 04:01 pm |
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This is an excellent book on the topic:
Excommunication And The Catholic Church
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"Where Peter is, there is the Church" -- St. Ambrose of Milan
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 04:39 pm |
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Here's a related article I wrote, to add to the excellent post by CajunRick:
The Catholic Understanding of the Anathemas of Trent and Excommunication
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Nov 7th, 2007 12:58 am |
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Here is further information on excommunication:
From Ed Peters' Question and Answer book, Excommunication and the Catholic Church: Straight Answers to Tough Questions (Ascension Press):
Question: I had heard that Catholics who divorce and then remarry outside the Church are excommunicated. Is this true?
Answer: In the United States, this was true for nearly a hundred years, but it is not true today. In 1884, the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore received permission from the Holy See to impose an "automatic" excommunication on American Catholics who divorced and, without petitioning for and receiving a declaration of nullity (commonly called an annulment), remarried in a civil or other non-Catholic ceremony. This special penal law, applicable only in America, remained in effect until 1977 when the American bishops asked for and received Rome's permission to drop the penalty of excommunication in these cases. Since then, American Catholics who divorce and remarry outside the Church are not excommunicated (though, in most cases, the Church does not recognize the validity of those weddings).
Moreover, by operation of what later became canon 1313 of the 1983 Code, those who were already excommunicated at the time saw their penalty lifted, even though they lacked the change of heart that normally must precede the lifting of a censure such as excommunication.
It is important to understand that lifting the penalty of excommunication did not mean that the Church suddenly recognized these marriage as being valid, or that marrying outside the Church was no longer seen as gravely wrong and spiritually harmful. Persons who are divorced and remarried outside the Church even today are generally prohibited (under c. 915) from receiving the Eucharist until they rectify their situation in accord with canon law. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reiterated this point as recently as 1994 in its Letter on the Reception of the Eucharist by Divorced and Remarried Catholics .
(pp. 14-15)
Question: What are some of the things people can be excommunicated for?
Answer: Today's list of excommunicable offenses is much shorter than it was at other times in Church history. There has been a conscious effort by ecclesiastical authority -- especially since the late 19th century and even more so after Vatican II -- to reduce the number of offenses for which excommunication can be used. The Catholic Church is clearly restricting her most serious punishment to the most serious offenses. Why? Because, as stated earlier, the Church wishes to use censures only to the degree necessary for repentance.
Under current canon law, only certain crimes are directly punishable by excommunication. They are: apostasy, heresy, or schism (c.1364); desecration of the Eucharist (c. 1367); physical attack on the pope (c. 1370); absolution of an accomplice (c. 1378); simulated celebration of Mass or confession (c. 1378); unauthorized consecration of bishops (c. 1382); violation of the sacramental seal by the confessor or by others (c. 1388); and procuring abortion (c. 1398). One can easily see that these types of offenses are those that could cause great disturbance in the Church. (pp. 12-13)
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
Member
| Joined: | Thu Nov 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Midland, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | C of C, Wicca, Satanist, Atheist, Agnostic, Baptist, Unity, and ... |
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Posted: Wed Nov 7th, 2007 12:04 pm |
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To All,
Thanks for the answers. I finally had some time to check in. I just was so tired last night I could not get up and log on the computer.
I will certainly head to the links and read the stuff when I get more time.
Sincerely,
Anne
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