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danica
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 27th, 2008 |
| Location: | Centurion, Pretoria. , South Africa |
| Posts: | 28 |
| First Name: | Danica-Christine | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Dutch Reformed, Charismatic, AFM. Now Catholic for life! |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 02:13 pm |
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Dear friends,
My mother and i had a tough discussion yesterday after coming come from our first (my mother's second in her life-time) Catholic Church service.
We read what John Salza said that any who are outside the RC Church are not saved. Here are my questions:
i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
ii. There are millions of Christians (Protestant) in the world who love Jesus more than anything, who are baptised and who repented of their sin. Does being Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, Charismatic, etc.) still make them "unsaved"?
iii. My mother said to me, "If this is true, that means every word the Lord has spoken to me; everything he promised me, my gift of tongues, etc., are all from Satan."
This was quite upsetting, because we know that the Lord speaks t us as a family. He has done many miracles for us, as well. My mother has been saved for over 30 years, and has heard the voice of the Lord more clear than most. 
What does the Church say about this matter?
iv. John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
Please answer these questions for me those who can. Both my mother and I feel terribly confused at the moment. 
I thank you sincerely.
Regards,
Danica-Christine. [Protestant by denomination *unfortunately*; Catholic at heart and soul. Will convert as soon as I have my father's blessing.]
____________________
.:: True Devotion | Catholic Community ::.
http://christcatholic.proboards74.com
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 02:46 pm |
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danica wrote: i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
iv. John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
Christ is present whole and entire in the single species, therefore it is not necessary to have the Precious Blood. Taking communion "under both kinds" as it is called may result in confusion about the nature of the Eucharist, the fact that Christ is present in either species alone.
Yes, only a properly ordained priest can confect the Eucharist. Some specially qualified lay people are allowed to serve but only a priest can confect the Eucharist by virtue of his ordination which allows him to act in person Christi capitis.
These issues are essential to Catholic belief and you must be certain that your beliefs in these areas coincide with Church teaching before you join the Church. If you do not believe these things then you simply are not "Catholic in heart and soul."
Last edited on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 02:48 pm by Annie
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 98 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:29 pm |
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danica wrote:
Dear friends,
My mother and i had a tough discussion yesterday after coming come from our first (my mother's second in her life-time) Catholic Church service.
We read what John Salza said that any who are outside the RC Church are not saved. Here are my questions:
i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
ii. There are millions of Christians (Protestant) in the world who love Jesus more than anything, who are baptised and who repented of their sin. Does being Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, Charismatic, etc.) still make them "unsaved"?
iii. My mother said to me, "If this is true, that means every word the Lord has spoken to me; everything he promised me, my gift of tongues, etc., are all from Satan."
This was quite upsetting, because we know that the Lord speaks t us as a family. He has done many miracles for us, as well. My mother has been saved for over 30 years, and has heard the voice of the Lord more clear than most.
What does the Church say about this matter?
iv. John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
Please answer these questions for me those who can. Both my mother and I feel terribly confused at the moment.
I thank you sincerely.
Regards,
Danica-Christine. [Protestant by denomination *unfortunately*; Catholic at heart and soul. Will convert as soon as I have my father's blessing.]
Danica,
Your mother's defensiveness is very understandable. Often, people feel "judged" by the Church - but most of the time it's the result of not having a good understanding of what the Church actually teaches.
Here's a great article on "No salvation outside of the Church" by Avery Cardinal Dulles that was in First Things magazine recently. I think it's the best thing I've read on the subject. Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J., holds the Laurence J. McGinley Chair in Religion and Society at Fordham University.
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6126
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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danica
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 27th, 2008 |
| Location: | Centurion, Pretoria. , South Africa |
| Posts: | 28 |
| First Name: | Danica-Christine | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Dutch Reformed, Charismatic, AFM. Now Catholic for life! |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:36 pm |
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Thank you for your reply, but I couldn't help but feel quite offended by what you said at in the last sentence below: These issues are essential to Catholic belief and you must be certain that your beliefs in these areas coincide with Church teaching before you join the Church. If you do not believe these things then you simply are not "Catholic in heart and soul
If you were where my mother and I are, you'd understand that just "converting" with no thought of what we know, love, and understand is just a big lie, is rediculous!
By that I mean, not rediculous to follow the Catholic Church's teaching, but rediculous as not to ask first. And secondly, I need to know, why "just the bread"? Jesus broke both the bread, and gave the wine.
Please know, this is not meant as a confrontation, but a question.
I am in a place of depression at the moment, wondering if my entire Christian life/relationship with God was a complete lie. I don't understand why you'd post what you did about where my heart lies - as it is with the Catholic Church - but I have the right to ask questions, non-the-less.
My family and I have been through hell and back; all of these situations made God's voice clearer, and His presence more real. Was this all a hoax?
This is my question to you.
Thank you for your time.
And please know, I am not attacking you, and most of all, not the Catholic Church. I'm just at a terrible place at the moment.
God bless.
Thank you for your time.
____________________
.:: True Devotion | Catholic Community ::.
http://christcatholic.proboards74.com
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danica
Member
| Joined: | Sun Jan 27th, 2008 |
| Location: | Centurion, Pretoria. , South Africa |
| Posts: | 28 |
| First Name: | Danica-Christine | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Dutch Reformed, Charismatic, AFM. Now Catholic for life! |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:37 pm |
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Thank you very much. Please forgive my double-post, as I only saw your answer after my post.
God bless you. I'll read it right away.
MichaelStEdmund wrote: danica wrote:
Dear friends,
My mother and i had a tough discussion yesterday after coming come from our first (my mother's second in her life-time) Catholic Church service.
We read what John Salza said that any who are outside the RC Church are not saved. Here are my questions:
i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
ii. There are millions of Christians (Protestant) in the world who love Jesus more than anything, who are baptised and who repented of their sin. Does being Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, Charismatic, etc.) still make them "unsaved"?
iii. My mother said to me, "If this is true, that means every word the Lord has spoken to me; everything he promised me, my gift of tongues, etc., are all from Satan."
This was quite upsetting, because we know that the Lord speaks t us as a family. He has done many miracles for us, as well. My mother has been saved for over 30 years, and has heard the voice of the Lord more clear than most.
What does the Church say about this matter?
iv. John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
Please answer these questions for me those who can. Both my mother and I feel terribly confused at the moment.
I thank you sincerely.
Regards,
Danica-Christine. [Protestant by denomination *unfortunately*; Catholic at heart and soul. Will convert as soon as I have my father's blessing.]
Danica,
Your mother's defensiveness is very understandable. Often, people feel "judged" by the Church - but most of the time it's the result of not having a good understanding of what the Church actually teaches.
Here's a great article on "No salvation outside of the Church" by Avery Cardinal Dulles that was in First Things magazine recently. I think it's the best thing I've read on the subject. Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J., holds the Laurence J. McGinley Chair in Religion and Society at Fordham University.
http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6126
____________________
.:: True Devotion | Catholic Community ::.
http://christcatholic.proboards74.com
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:48 pm |
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danica wrote: Thank you for your reply, but I couldn't help but feel quite offended by what you said at in the last sentence below: These issues are essential to Catholic belief and you must be certain that your beliefs in these areas coincide with Church teaching before you join the Church. If you do not believe these things then you simply are not "Catholic in heart and soul
If you were where my mother and I are, you'd understand that just "converting" with no thought of what we know, love, and understand is just a big lie, is rediculous!
By that I mean, not rediculous to follow the Catholic Church's teaching, but rediculous as not to ask first. And secondly, I need to know, why "just the bread"? Jesus broke both the bread, and gave the wine.
Please know, this is not meant as a confrontation, but a question.
I am in a place of depression at the moment, wondering if my entire Christian life/relationship with God was a complete lie. I don't understand why you'd post what you did about where my heart lies - as it is with the Catholic Church - but I have the right to ask questions, non-the-less.
My family and I have been through hell and back; all of these situations made God's voice clearer, and His presence more real. Was this all a hoax?
This is my question to you.
Thank you for your time.
And please know, I am not attacking you, and most of all, not the Catholic Church. I'm just at a terrible place at the moment.
God bless.
Thank you for your time.
To us here, "Catholic in heart and soul" would mean believing as Catholics do. That is why I am confused about the questions, which are on fundamentals. It is also hard to understand how you can think the Church has the Truth with a capital T when you don't first know what those truths are. Reading most people's conversion stories, they learned about the Church's teachings and then came to think of them as true.
It sounds now like you have some idea that the Church is where you belong but don't know why. If this is the case, please don't be offended when people misinterpret your statement that you are "Catholic in heart and soul" as that would imply that you are ready to be a practicing Catholic.
As far as feeling all at sea, this is normal. God will lead you where you belong and make sure you get there at the right time too. It's like asking him to drive you to the train station. Sit in the back seat with your suitcase and have your train ticket ready.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 03:59 pm |
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danica wrote: John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
The husband is the head of the home, but Christ is the head of His Church. And the properly ordained priest is His ordinary minister of communion.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 965 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 04:20 pm |
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danica wrote:
I am in a place of depression at the moment, wondering if my entire Christian life/relationship with God was a complete lie.
Danica-Christine,
I hope you will scroll to the bottom of that article and read the final paragraph carefully.
Please be comforted. No, your entire relationship with God has not been a lie. It has instead been a sacred personal journey whose goal has always been to get you into heaven. God has been at work in your circumstances and contacts and has guided you through experiences suited for your needs and His purposes.
It sounds as if you and your family have been trying hard for a long time to know, love, and serve God and as if He has led you toward His one true Church, the Catholic Church. There is plenty of time to study and master the theology behind your questions. Our moderators (who often volunteer their time and have other job responsibilities during the day) will patiently and clearly lead you through that process, if you like. For now, be at peace and know that we honor your journey thus far.
It is important to move forward and to embrace fully the Catholic Church as soon as you are ready to do so. Becoming ready requires lots of prayer and study, patience, and faith. That faith, Danica-Christine, comes only through grace. The great Cardinal Newman wrote that it is our duty to submit to the Catholic Church, but that we can do so only through grace, and therefore must pray fervently that God will grant us that grace.
Be patient with yourself and with the process. It is normal to have lots of questions and to feel a bit overwhelmed by the strangeness of new customs and new teachings. We want to help. You'll find some lovely people here.
I will be praying for you and your family and look forward to reading more of your posts.
Grace and peace,
BeckyLast edited on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 04:26 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Kim M.
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 442 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 04:27 pm |
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danica wrote: ii. There are millions of Christians (Protestant) in the world who love Jesus more than anything, who are baptised and who repented of their sin. Does being Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, Charismatic, etc.) still make them "unsaved"?
Danica, I don't think the Catholic Church sees Protestants as unsaved. We are referred to as the "separated brethren". Brethren, nonetheless, just not possessing what Catholics call the "fullness of the faith". You probably sense that fullness, which is maybe why you say you are "Catholic at heart and soul".
You will meet many Protestants believers here and newly converted Prots to Catholicism. I have been a believer in Christ for over 18 years. I doubt my conversion would be considered null and void just because I was saved outside the Catholic Church. It is Christ who converts our hearts via the Holy Spirit and brings us into the church. He said, "No one comes to the Father except by Me." He uses the Church to get the message out that we need Him to be saved. Protestantism came out of the Catholic Church, which is why Protestants are referred to as the "separated brethren".
Nice to meet you, btw!
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 159 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 05:31 pm |
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Danica-Christine, I understand your mother's reaction and yours to the statement that people outside the Catholic Church are not saved. I remember, as a Protestant, the relief I felt when reading in the Catechism of the Catholic Church the grace-filled sentences talking about non-Catholic Christians as "our separated brethren." Catholics don't blame us for being outside the Church for all those years! In fact, some of the text in that part of the Cathechism makes it clear that generations have passed since Protestants broke off from the Church, and that present-day Protestants are not in any way guilty for being away from the church, although they pray we will come back so that we, too, can experience the fullness of truth, the fullness of faith that is available in the Church.
Now that I'm in the Catholic Church, I am experiencing a deepening and widening of the truths I already knew and understood as a Protestant. Nothing is lost. Nothing is in vain. The Lord gathers up all we have learned outside his Church, and he gently, quietly, helps it expand, just as the yeast quietly, yet profoundly, expands the dough.
Please reassure your mother that our gentle God -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- is responsible for the loving miracles he worked among your family members, for your salvation, for the gift of tongues, and for speaking to her through the years. It could be that he has given you these gifts of himself to encourage you to come into his one sheepfold, the Catholic Church. You love Jesus Christ, you have surrendered your life to him, and he loves you enough to bring you to this crucial crossroad in your lives.
Your baptism "counts" in the Catholic Church, because we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. As long as the baptism was performed with the intention of bringing you into Christ's kingdom, and as long as you were baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, your baptism is valid.
As for Holy Communion, try re-reading some of the passages in the Bible with the view of seeing who it is Jesus is giving the instructions to about serving communion and forgiving sins. Do you notice that it is to his Apostles that he gives the instructions to continue the practice of Holy Communion? And can you see that it is only to his Apostles that he gives the right to forgive sins? (John 20:21-23)
Christ gave the power and authority to his Apostles, and they in turn gave the power to their successors. Through the centuries, the preceding generation has passed on the power to the next group of men ordained to carry out these particular works of Christ.
When groups broke away during the centuries, including during the Protestant Reformation, the chain of ordinations stopped. That means those of us raised in Protestant churches never received bread and wine that had been changed into our Lord's body and blood, because the minister or preacher did not have the power, right, or privilege to make that change. My personal view is that God's mercy kept us eating only bread and grape juice so that we would not grievously offend him. It was also for our own protection, because none of us was taught to discern the true body of the risen Christ as we received communion.
By the way, in my parish, we are offered both the bread and wine, and we can choose whether to receive Christ in both species, or only one.
Hope this helps, and I hope you and your mother will ask more questions.
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Kim M.
Member
| Joined: | Mon Feb 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 442 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 05:36 pm |
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Free wrote: Danica-Christine, I understand your mother's reaction and yours to the statement that people outside the Catholic Church are not saved. I remember, as a Protestant, the relief I felt when reading in the Catechism of the Catholic Church the grace-filled sentences talking about non-Catholic Christians as "our separated brethren." Catholics don't blame us for being outside the Church for all those years! In fact, some of the text in that part of the Cathechism makes it clear that generations have passed since Protestants broke off from the Church, and that present-day Protestants are not in any way guilty for being away from the church, although they pray we will come back so that we, too, can experience the fullness of truth, the fullness of faith that is available in the Church.
Now that I'm in the Catholic Church, I am experiencing a deepening and widening of the truths I already knew and understood as a Protestant. Nothing is lost. Nothing is in vain. The Lord gathers up all we have learned outside his Church, and he gently, quietly, helps it expand, just as the yeast quietly, yet profoundly, expands the dough.
Please reassure your mother that our gentle God -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- is responsible for the loving miracles he worked among your family members, for your salvation, for the gift of tongues, and for speaking to her through the years. It could be that he has given you these gifts of himself to encourage you to come into his one sheepfold, the Catholic Church. You love Jesus Christ, you have surrendered your life to him, and he loves you enough to bring you to this crucial crossroad in your lives.
Your baptism "counts" in the Catholic Church, because we acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. As long as the baptism was performed with the intention of bringing you into Christ's kingdom, and as long as you were baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, your baptism is valid.
As for Holy Communion, try re-reading some of the passages in the Bible with the view of seeing who it is Jesus is giving the instructions to about serving communion and forgiving sins. Do you notice that it is to his Apostles that he gives the instructions to continue the practice of Holy Communion? And can you see that it is only to his Apostles that he gives the right to forgive sins? (John 20:21-23)
Christ gave the power and authority to his Apostles, and they in turn gave the power to their successors. Through the centuries, the preceding generation has passed on the power to the next group of men ordained to carry out these particular works of Christ.
When groups broke away during the centuries, including during the Protestant Reformation, the chain of ordinations stopped. That means those of us raised in Protestant churches never received bread and wine that had been changed into our Lord's body and blood, because the minister or preacher did not have the power, right, or privilege to make that change. My personal view is that God's mercy kept us eating only bread and grape juice so that we would not grievously offend him. It was also for our own protection, because none of us was taught to discern the true body of the risen Christ as we received communion.
By the way, in my parish, we are offered both the bread and wine, and we can choose whether to receive Christ in both species, or only one.
Hope this helps, and I hope you and your mother will ask more questions.
Beautifully put, Jane. 
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 05:49 pm |
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danica wrote: We read what John Salza said that any who are outside the RC Church are not saved. Here are my questions:
I have never seen this on John's web site, and it certainly is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. I'd appreciate a reference so I can read exactly what he said.
i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
Never grape juice, but the Eucharist is offered in the form of bread, wine, or bread and wine. All are the Body and Blood of Jesus, whole and entire.
ii. There are millions of Christians (Protestant) in the world who love Jesus more than anything, who are baptised and who repented of their sin. Does being Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, Charismatic, etc.) still make them "unsaved"?
There are many Protestants who will be saved, and many Catholics who will be condemned. Religion is a path to salvation, not a guarantee of it.
iii. My mother said to me, "If this is true, that means every word the Lord has spoken to me; everything he promised me, my gift of tongues, etc., are all from Satan."
Since it is not true, your mother's gifts may well be from God even though she is not Catholic.
iv. John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
The Church does not say only a priest can distribute the Eucharist. Again, I would appreciate a reference to Mr. Salza's web site where he said this. However, there is a difference between the ordained ministry and the common priesthood we all share, going all the way back to the priesthood of Aaron in the Old Testament. Priests have always been "set apart" for a special ministry through their anointing with oil and the Holy Spirit.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 118 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 05:55 pm |
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Danica,
I think you have been misinformed or misunderstood the Church's teaching about the relationship of non-Catholics to the body of Christ. At a minimum, you should always refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church before jumping to any conclusion. I think the following excerpt addresses the situation best:
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321 (As an aside, I always think this is worth remembering).838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
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TTM!
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Jackie
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 08:08 pm |
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Welcome Danica-Christine (and to your mom also)
I was born into the Catholic Faith and will speak to you from that perspective but I hope you will understand that our Faith is so rich and so full that at age 45, I am still learning things that I never completely or concretely understood. My point being, this Faith journey may take a lifetime to fully realize and understand. You will have moments of unease or uncertainty. There will be questions upon questions but be patient with yourself and do not loose heart. You are moving in the right direction. Most importantly be sure you are asking and obtaining information from a Catholic source. Like a Priest or here with our moderators. Many on this forum have extensive knowledge and/or know where to go to obtain the Truth from this Catholic perspective.
Now as to the "bread and wine", yes Jesus broke bread and gave wine but only an Ordained Priest may perform the consecration at mass. This is the actual action taken by the Priest, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that changes the bread into Christ's body and the wine into His blood. Both contain our Divine Saviour so if I partake in only the bead, I am still receiving the WHOLE of my Saviour. Amen! That being said, please understand we Catholics view the Eucharist as more precious as anything we could ever imagine. It is the source and summit of our Faith!
God is not limited to our human undestanding and may therefore move and express Himself to us in many ways. The 'miracles' your family has seen or experienced notwithstanding. So no, what God has revealed to you cannot be a lie if it was infact He that was revealed. If I told the whole of my life on this forum, many would be hard pressed to understand how I could have ever seen that as God moving in my life. But the truth remains, He has worked in and through my experiences so to reveal Himslef to me and to have me turn to Him. Fully and in full surrender.
Let me also affirm, that if you and your family were Baptized with water, in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, than our Church does infact recognize it as a valid Baptism. (Move to the Baptism thread on this forum and read what's there, some of your questions may already be answered there-if not ask away  )
I closing, I have to ask, outside of the obvious, why would you need your fathers blessing to convert? Are you underage? Is this a family tradition?
In love and encouragement, I remain
Jackie
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DrDave
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 09:11 pm |
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danica wrote: i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
Through the bread and the fish, Jesus fed 5000 men (not necessarily counting women and children). He did not share with them the bread and wine that had become his body and blood. This he shared with twelve to whom he commanded "do this in memory of me".
It is common in my experience for many protestants to read every passage of the bible as if it were addressed to them, but here he was simultaneously commanding, and empowering only those twelve to "do this". Those twelve have passed on this command and this power to their successors througout the centuries to our present day bishops and priests.
In every Catholic mass, there is bread and wine present, through the power granted by Christ to this "Ministerial Priesthood" it is transformed into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. It is then (under both forms) consumed by the priest. This is what is required to fulfil the command "do this". There need not be anyone else present for the priest to fulfil this obligation. When the priest distributes communion to the faithful, he is doing something over and above what was required by that simple command "do this".
Now don't get me wrong, It is a requirement of the Church that communion be distributed to the faithful under at least one form, but that requirement in not necessarily implied by the words of Christ when he instituted the Eucharist at the last supper
Regards Doc
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 09:21 pm |
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Hi Danica-Christine,
Thanks for your questions. This is a large reason why this forum is here, to help people to better understand and accept the Catholic faith.
My own vocation as a Catholic apologist is concerned with not only showing what the Catholic Church teaches, but also the additional element of why we believe as we do. Perhaps that extra component of "why" can be of some help and comfort to you in your present situation of feeling somewhat confused, and being asked a lot of serious questions (that deserve good answers).
It's good to realize, too, that such confusion and even some "fear" is perfectly normal for those on the journey to the Catholic faith. It's not unusual at all, and you are not alone. And (assuming Catholicism is true), the devil has an interest in making you not believe that, and he does his dirty work too. Knowing these things help you to cope with it a bit better.
My mother and i had a tough discussion yesterday after coming come from our first (my mother's second in her life-time) Catholic Church service.
At least she did go, which is an encouraging sign. You can expect to get many questions from her! We're here to help you with some good answers to her questions.
We read what John Salza said that any who are outside the RC Church are not saved.
I'd have to see what he actually wrote. If he wrote something like "outside the Church there is no salvation": that is a true statement, but very widely misunderstood. It means:
A) "The Church is in fact involved in every salvation, whether the person is aware of it or not. People are saved by Jesus Christ and also through the human instrumentality of the Church"
not:
B) If a person is not literally a member of the Catholic Church or if they do not accept everything that the Church teaches, whether they have even heard about it or not, they are inevitably damned.
The two are very different statements. Many people erroneously assume that B is what the phrase "outside the Church there is no salvation" means, according to the Catholics who believe it, but they are wrong. Rather than digress into this complex subject, I'll refer you to some papers on it:
Brief Overview of the Vexed "No Salvation Outside the Church" Issue
The Catholic Church's View of Non-Catholic Christians (Karl Adam)
On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church (+ Discussion) (Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.)
Here are my questions:
i. The priest yesterday gave the people mass, but only the bread - no wine/grape juice. He just gave them the small piece of bread. Do Catholics not aprtake of the cup?
We have the option to often partake of the cup, but it is not always offered and not required (my own parish rarely offers it, if at all). The reason is that God (being God) cannot ever be divided. The "division" is only symbolic or conceptual (with the cup representing blood). The reality of transubstantiation, however, is that God is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in both what was formerly bread and formerly wine.
There is biblical indication of this:
1 Corinthians 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Note the bolded "or" and "and." The way that Paul phrases this shows that he believes that the Body and Blood are present in both species. The "or" proves it. The logic and grammar require it, so that the above can also be expressed in the following two propositions:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Whoever, therefore, drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Traditionally, the cup was withheld out of legitimate concerns for both hygiene and possible spilling.
ii. There are millions of Christians (Protestant) in the world who love Jesus more than anything, who are baptised and who repented of their sin. Does being Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, Charismatic, etc.) still make them "unsaved"?
First of all, Catholics look at salvation as a process, completed only at death. We don't have a theology of a person being saved now and for all time (what is known as eternal security or -- in Calvinism -- perseverance of the saints). We can have a great deal of what we call "moral assurance" by examining ourselves to determine that we are not in mortal sin, and therefore in good graces with God so that in all likelihood we will be saved when we die. But we can't be absolutely sure of that.
Nor can any Protestant, for that matter, because they don't know the entire future. Even John Calvin taught that a person cannot know who is or is not in the elect of God, not even for themselves. Martin Luther often wrote about "striving" to know and accept that we are saved. He had very little personal assurance (I would argue that he had a greatly insufficient trust in God's mercy and lovingkindness).
So, given all I just wrote, we don't talk in terms of "he is save" or "that person is definitely going to hell." The Catholic does not claim to know these things. And we do not because this is what the Bible teaches. For example:
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.Philippians 3:11-14 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own . . . I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.Hebrews 3:12-14 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day . . . that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.
Protestants will be judged (just like Catholics) on what they know and how they act upon it. "To whom much is given, much is erequired." We acknowledge Protestant baptism as a valid sacrament, which means that we think a Protestant is regenerated or "born again" at baptism and made a child of God, just as we are. They are incorporated into the Body of Christ by virtue of their baptism. Thus, the Church has written things like:
all who have been justified by faith in baptism are INCORPORATED INTO CHRIST [footnote cites Council of Florence, Session 8, from the year 1439]; they therefore have a right to be called CHRISTIANS, and with good reason are accepted as BROTHERS by the children of the Catholic Church. (3)
Moreover, some, even very many, of the most significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist OUTSIDE the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. ALL of these . . . COME FROM CHRIST and lead back to him . . . (3)
The brethren divided from us also carry out many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. In ways that vary according to the conditions of each Church or community, these liturgical actions most certainly can truly engender a LIFE OF GRACE, and, one must say, can aptly GIVE ACCESS TO THE COMMUNION OF SALVATION. (3)
the separated Churches and communions as such . . . have been by no means deprived of significance and IMPORTANCE IN THE MYSTERY OF SALVATION. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as a MEANS OF SALVATION which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church. (3)
(Vatican II: Decree on Ecumenism / Unitatis Redintegratio, 21 November 1964; all emphases mine)
I hasten to add that if a person truly knows that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Jesus and rejects it utterly, then they are in distinct danger of damnation. But no man is in a position to know that for sure about anyone else, because we can read neither minds nor hearts of other people. Only God knows that.
iii. My mother said to me, "If this is true, that means every word the Lord has spoken to me; everything he promised me, my gift of tongues, etc., are all from Satan."
This was quite upsetting, because we know that the Lord speaks t us as a family. He has done many miracles for us, as well. My mother has been saved for over 30 years, and has heard the voice of the Lord more clear than most.
What does the Church say about this matter?
It says she is quite mistaken about that. There is no need whatsoever to assume (from within a Catholic perspective) that Protestantism is completely from the devil and wrong through and through. The Church accepts truth wherever it is found and views Protestantism as a "largely good thing" rather than a "bad, wicked, evil thing." We see that belief reflected in the words above, from Vatican II. Hence, directly along the lines of what concerned your mother, the same document stated:
Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the TRULY CHRISTIAN ENDOWMENTS for our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the RICHES OF CHRIST and virtuous works in the lives of others who are BEARING WITNESS TO CHRIST, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. (4)
Nor should we forget that anything WROUGHT BY THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in the hearts of our separated brethren can CONTRIBUTE TO OUR OWN EDIFICATION. Whatever is TRULY CHRISTIAN is never contrary to what GENUINELY BELONGS TO THE FAITH; indeed, it can always bring a more perfect realization of the very mystery of Christ and the Church. (4)
The Church rejects nothing that is true and good in Protestantism, or even in non-Christian religions. What is good is good, in and of itself. It is some forms of Protestantism that believe that anyone who is "outside the fold" is necessarily damned. I had a Calvinist friend of mine in my house at our New Year's Party argue that absolutely anyone who hasn't heard the gospel was damned. Catholics don't believe that at all. And we base that on Romans 2, where the Apostle Paul teaches that every person will be judged, based on what he knows.
Calvinists also believe in total depravity. This means (I know this, because I did a big study on it recently) that literally everything an unregenerate person does is evil, even if it appears to be an ostensibly good act. Now, some Protestants may unconsciously project this (unbiblical) mentality onto Catholics, as if we think in these same terms. But we do not. Not even Arminian (non-Calvinist) Protestants do.
iv. John Salza said that only a Priest is allowed to give Holy Communion. But Jesus never said that. God says that the husband is the Priest of the home.
Please answer these questions for me those who can. Both my mother and I feel terribly confused at the moment.
I'm glad to be of whatever help I can be. No need to be confused. The requirement of a priest (or deacon) to distribute and preside over Holly Communion is based on the biblical teaching of apostolic succession (see my paper on the biblical basis of that). Jesus originally set up His Church with the leadership of His disciples and the larger group of the apostles (including, e.g., Paul, who never met Jesus). They were the leaders (Peter being the head of all in the Church).
There is such a thing as a priest in the Catholic sense, and this is biblical teaching as well. I gave a summary of this in my book, The One-Minute Apologist:
One can indeed find evidence in the Bible of a Christian priesthood. Jesus entrusts to His disciples a remembrance of the central aspect of the liturgy or Mass (consecration of the bread and wine) at the Last Supper (Lk. 22:19: "Do this in remembrance of me"; Paul may also have presided over a Eucharist – Acts 20:11). These same disciples were (like priests) models of a life wholly devoted to God, as a matter of lifelong calling. Jesus had chosen and "appointed" them, and they had become His "friends" (Jn. 15:15-16). He was their sole master (Mt. 6:24). There was no turning back in their ministry (Lk. 9:62), and they were called to a radical commitment involving even leaving possessions and their entire families (Mt. 4:22, 19:27; Lk. 14:26). The priest-disciple must accept hardships and privations and embrace self-denial (Mt. 8:19-20, 10:38, 16:24, etc.), and (if so called) celibacy, for the sake of undistracted devotion to the Lord (Mt. 19:12; 1 Cor. 7:7-9). They served the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 3:5, 9:19; 2 Cor. 4:5), and dispensed sacraments (1 Cor. 4:1; Jas. 5:14), including baptism (Mt. 28:19; Acts 2:38,41). A universal priesthood of "offering" (sacrifice) extending to "every place" in New Testament times is prophesied in Isaiah 66:18,21 and Malachi 1:11.
Protestants sometimes cite 1 Peter 2:5,9 (cf. Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6) to the effect that all Christians are priests. But Peter was citing Exodus 19:6: "you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." The problem with this is that the older passage couldn't possibly have meant that there was no priesthood among the ancient Hebrews, since they clearly had a separate class of priests (Leviticus: chapters 4-7, 13-14). This is even seen in the same chapter, since Ex. 19:21-24 (cf. Josh. 3:6, 4:9) twice contrasts the "priests" with the "people." Thus, it makes much more sense to interpret 1 Pet. 2:5 as meaning a people "specially holy" – like priests; a separate, holy, "chosen" people, as is fairly clear in context, in both parallel passages. The notion of "spiritual sacrifices" (faith, praise, giving to others) applies to all Christians (Phil. 2:17; Heb. 13:15-16).
We see the special God-ordained powers of the priest also in passages about "binding and loosing": Jewish terms that referred to forgiving sins and imposing penance. Jesus spoke these words to His disciples, with the understanding that their office would be passed on through history, and that ordination was a special sacrament open to only a few specially called persons:
Matthew 16:19 (RSV): I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 20:21-23: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
These and many other considerations have led Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and a few other Protestant groups to believe in apostolic succession. That's why we believe in the succession of priests, bishops, and popes, as the successors of the "line" of the apostles.
But even this is not absolute in every case of the sacraments, since we believe. e.g., that the couple marrying confer the sacrament on each other (and that this is true for validly married Protestants also). We also believe that anyone can baptize if they have the right intent and use the trinitarian formula (this is usually in emergency situations).
Please feel free to ask for any clarifications of any of the above. Have a great day! 
Last edited on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 09:33 pm by Dave Armstrong
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CajunRick
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