 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 786 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 11:58 am |
|
This week, a Dominican friar is lecturing at church about the Creed. It's sort of a rambling talk... I've been listening to him now for 5 hours and I'm not sure I've learned all that much. But I am having trouble putting 2 plus 2 together and having it give me a consistent idea of God. He made Point 1 below and Point 2 is information I've gathered from my reading and from other sources.
Point 1: He went on and on about how a Muslim or a Jew or anyone for that matter could be saved through Christ if they practice their faith sincerely. OK. I guess Jesus can save whom He will save. A sincere Muslim can go to Heaven. Given the numerous Bible verses to the contrary, I don't really get it, but I'm not going to tell Jesus that He can't save someone He wants to save either.
Point 2: Missing Mass is a mortal sin, so if I lazily sleep in on a Sunday and then get hit by a truck that afternoon, I will die in mortal sin and go to hell.
The first makes God to be very gracious and forgiving and understanding and yielding and the second to be somewhat draconian.
I can't seem to put these together in a coherent fashion. Can someone explain this to me? Maybe my premises are incorrect, and I will gladly relearn them if that's the case.
I appreciate this very much as I will have to go back and ask him if I don't learn from you and I don't know if I'm going to understand his answer. He doesn't solicit questions and when I did ask a couple, his answers didn't satisfy me. They didn't really answer the question I was asking, not that I didn't get the answer I wanted.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 810 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 02:24 pm |
|
I was thinking about this very thing last night. Glad someone else sees it. It seems ironic that being a Catholic both has one of the more hopeful views of just about anybody getting to heaven, yet one of the most difficult paths if you yourself want to get there!
I try telling myself I like this. Because for one, it is just wrong to be judging who is and who is not going to heaven, not knowing all the details of how much they understood about Jesus and how they responded to the details that they did actually know and understand. I hated my former churches view of assuming everyone was on the path to hell who had never officially said the sinner's prayer. In fact this view left a lot of Christians as "unsaved"
On the flip side, i am trying to appreciate the fact that the Catholic church does not take our journey lightly and makes sure we have everything necessary to not fall off the path. Our salvation is such a serious matter (though it is grace that gets us there, still we cooperate) that we are lucky to know exactly how to stay on the track by a life of faithfulness and repentance to Christ in the church.
So the church excludes us from both being judgmental towards others or from being spiritually lazy. And even before i was Catholic this made sense to me. I always see how difficult the path Jesus actually calls us too. How the bible makes things such as obedience and perseverance absolute necessities. I feel like many evangelicals simply ignore these passages when assuming it only takes one sincere prayer to be saved (though that one prayer can certainly make a huge difference, and i do believe in some experience of a momentary conversion). So while i started to believe in a Christianity that demands our all, I also found it hard to believe God would condemn people who never accurately heard of him or were betrayed by Christians. I already believed logically that infants or mentally handicapped people who died were exempt from hell most likely. So it then sort of followed with me that God could also save anyone who maybe just accepted Jesus the best they could if they were never fully convicted about His lordship in a cognitive way.
So it seems weird, and it is a little difficult to get our mind around. but i actually think it makes the most sense. also, my problem with the church having this view (however accurate it may be) is the average catholics lay prson's (and even some clergy) inability to properly understand and share this doctrine. I often run into catholics who believe that people of other religions will probably go to heaven as if they should not be concerned if they ever do come to believe in Jesus. As if there is absolutely no danger they are going to hell. As if all religions are actually equally acceptable and true to believe in. People are throwing out the notion of objective truth, or a need to confront and challenge other religious systems. They think it is wrong to tell anyone that they might be wrong. I hate this and think the church needs to clarify their position to the common person so they won't flippantly say things like, 'well there are many paths to God', or 'whatever works for this culture must be what God wants them to believe.' I hear these things a lot from catholics.
I at once want Catholicism to be the open minded tolerant and ecumenical religion it is, but without people forgetting that it is the truth! I want at once to hope for the salvation of all, while being uncomfortable with the fact that people do not know who Jesus is. In fact, accurately understood the teaching is that it is 'possible' that these people could go to heaven. But we do not say we know they will, or how many of them. It is possible that the great majority of them do not, since the idea of following God faithfully without some sort of guidance from the Holy Spirit in the church would demand so much on someone and require so much grace. We in the church have every advantage and we need to hope and pray that others find truth because without it all we are dealing with is a 'chance' they may be saved, but not in the normal and safest way. For all i know their soul may be in danger, and I need to pray for their conversion, hoping that whether or not i see it, that God may know more than I do and still let them in heaven because of his mercy and reasons I do not have the ability to judge. But Catholics need to remember that there is a hell.
As far as the mortal sin thing...I struggle with this. but I like to not get as technical as you did. meaning, if you lazily sleep in, do you feel bad about it? were you going to go to confession soon? to me, getting hit by a bus would not damn you, if the Lord knows in your heart you were going to come around soon. To me the necessity of confession is also something that assumes that you have the ability and availability to do. I am sure someone will correct me if I missed something.
Brian
|
|
|
Luke12:48
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 03:57 pm |
|
I feel compelled to at least try to answer you because I struggled with this too--hence my current screen name :-) I'm sure others will be more specific but I hope the links I am including might help you as well.
I grew up in the catholic faith and left at an early age, primarily due to my inability to reconcile science and catholicism but also because of the "holier than thou" attitude. I knew many non-catholics who were good people and even more importantly many catholics who were catholic only for about an hour a week (if that). The big picture didn't fit.
What I've learned is that we are judged according to what what we have been given-- how we have responded to His call. There are many "catholics" who will be judged on what was expected of them.
Here is one of my favorite links
The author begins with
"Does being Catholic make a difference in a person’s life? Does it make an eternal difference?"
"At first thought, maybe not. Vatican II’s Constitution on the Church seems to point in that direction. Section 16 names several categories of persons outside the Catholic Church who can (not necessarily will) be saved. The list includes non-Catholic Christians, Jews, Muslims, those who seek the unknown God, even those who have no explicit knowledge of God. Persons such as these can be saved if they earnestly seek to respond to God and to love him on the basis of the best information available to them. Some people conclude that if it is possible for such people to be saved, there is no point in being a Catholic. Yet there is more to consider. "
He makes several good points and concludes with"On this point the Second Vatican Council speaks to each of us. “All children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ.” (The phrase “exalted condition” in context means being inheritors of all the riches of Christ in his Church.) In the spirit of Jesus’ words, “From him who has been given much, much will be expected,” the Council issues a solemn warning. If the children of the Church “fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be the more severely judged” (Constitution on the Church, 14)"
Here is the complete article: http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0037.html
You might wish to ponder what is being said throughtout Luke 12. It took me a while but it was worth it when the lightbulb went on.
Here is part of it with a commentary http://www.rc.net/wcc/readings/oct25.htm
I can't speak to number 2 as I really don't think any of us can really know what will happen given any set of circumstances. It is the overall balance of justice and mercy that I believe will be satisfied for each individual when the time comes. I am not sure but I think it was Aquinas who said that pardon without repentance negates justice so I would think that if you were truly sorry when you realized you overslept, then more mercy would be applied than if you blew it off. I think the more important thing to keep in mind is that the possibility of the truck coming along should make you get out of bed in the first place.
Saying God is gracious, forgiving or draconian is assigning human responses to him. In reality, he is faithful and expects the same from us. He tells us what he expects up front and then responds accordingly. It is we who earn either justice or mercy. God isn't inconsistent, we are.
|
|
|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 12:33 pm |
|
Hi JillD,
While our Lord guarantees the Church cannot error on faith and morals, this does not hold for every catechist, pastor, preacher or even a pious Friar. Specifically, on the issue of missing Sunday mass: it is "serious matter". However, the question of whether it is a "mortal sin" involves other considerations:
Conditions for Mortal Sin:
1) Grave matter
2) Freedom
3) Knowledge
In other words, while the Church considers Sunday Mass a serious obligation, some self-examination is necessary before you can declare that missing Mass is "mortal sin"; there may be mitigating circumstances. Were you sick? Did you forget to set your clock? Were you travelling?
Look in your heart. If you have no appetite to share in the Lord's Supper, how "alive" is grace in your soul.
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 786 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 12:52 pm |
|
That's why I used the adverb "lazily" and not accidentally or unintentionally in my example. It might not be a disregard for the Sacrament, but rather a higher regard for an extra hour of sleep. Is that a mortal sin?
Which sort of brings me to a second question that I can't seem to get clear in my mind. Maybe it's impossible to determine. How "grave" must grave be to qualify for a mortal sin? What reasons for missing Mass are mortal and which are venial? Is it how it feels in one's heart as one ponders the choices? I can almost understand how Luther could suffer from scrupulosity as it is so much easier to simply consider sin "sin," and not worry about its degree. The "freedom" and "knowledge" parts are easier to understand. It's the "grave" adjective I am having a hard time with.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
|
|
|
TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 125 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Dec 1st, 2006 02:28 pm |
|
Hi JillD,
Remember that in the new dispensation, the life of grace allows us to "fulfill" the law in superabundance. In this perspective, we are conscious of grace within us and not trying to get by with the minimum observance (for example, we are strictly only required to communicate once per year - yet if we fall to that minimal level we have to ask how strong the life of charity is in our hearts).
Personally, I analogize mortal sin to a slap in the face (God's face, as it were); aside from seriousness, consciousness, and freedom there is also malice. Pastorally, however, think it is wise to be proactive and confess serious sin (even if we are not sure of the malice or mortality).
The question which some will raise is: is one sinful action enough to reorient us away from God? I think it is clear that in many cases one action may be sufficient:
murder, theft, adultery ... The question you may wonder is whether a positive precept like the Sunday obligation is really grave matter on the order of these other sins?
I think that because the command comes directly from God in the Ten Commandments, it is grave matter. However, in my own life - I believe it makes more sense to fulfill my Sunday obligation and confess when I don't without quibbling about whether it is mortal or venial. I don't want to do the minimal for God.
*I'm sorry - I realize I am answering this pastorally and not as a theological question per se.*
I am reminded of the 1st Letter of John, the "tests of life"; how do we know that we "abide" in grace?
2[3] And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
[24] All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.
3[6] We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
[13] By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his own Spirit.
Hope this helps!
Last edited on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 02:31 pm by TotusTuus
____________________
TTM!
|
|
|
GodBlessJoanie
Member
| Joined: | Sun Dec 10th, 2006 |
| Location: | Washingtonville, New York USA |
| Posts: | 10 |
| First Name: | Joanie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 09:53 pm |
|
JillD wrote: This week, a Dominican friar is lecturing at church about the Creed. It's sort of a rambling talk... I've been listening to him now for 5 hours and I'm not sure I've learned all that much. But I am having trouble putting 2 plus 2 together and having it give me a consistent idea of God. He made Point 1 below and Point 2 is information I've gathered from my reading and from other sources.
Point 1: He went on and on about how a Muslim or a Jew or anyone for that matter could be saved through Christ if they practice their faith sincerely. OK. I guess Jesus can save whom He will save. A sincere Muslim can go to Heaven. Given the numerous Bible verses to the contrary, I don't really get it, but I'm not going to tell Jesus that He can't save someone He wants to save either.
Point 2: Missing Mass is a mortal sin, so if I lazily sleep in on a Sunday and then get hit by a truck that afternoon, I will die in mortal sin and go to hell.
The first makes God to be very gracious and forgiving and understanding and yielding and the second to be somewhat draconian.
I can't seem to put these together in a coherent fashion. Can someone explain this to me? Maybe my premises are incorrect, and I will gladly relearn them if that's the case.
I appreciate this very much as I will have to go back and ask him if I don't learn from you and I don't know if I'm going to understand his answer. He doesn't solicit questions and when I did ask a couple, his answers didn't satisfy me. They didn't really answer the question I was asking, not that I didn't get the answer I wanted.
I understand what you mean. It reminds me of an old joke I once heard....where 2 guys are in hell and one guy says to the other guy "what u in here for?" His reply: "I killed my wife."
Then he asked "what got you here?"
His reply: "I ate meat on Friday."
____________________
God doesn't call the qualified, HE qualifies the CALLED!
|
|
|
Current time is 10:24 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
