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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 11:50 pm |
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from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
1435
Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, 33 by the admission of faults to one's brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one's cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.
We could start great threads on every phrase in the list above. However, I am asking that we please limit discussion in this particular thread to the phrase in red: fraternal correction.
I have been fascinated by the differences, some obvious, some subtle, in how fraternal correction plays out in the churches/traditions our forum members left and how they see it playing out now in their new Catholic contexts.
One difference I quickly noted is that many Catholic priests do not share the Southern Baptist ministers' carefulness about feelings and sensitivities. My father, a SB minister, was fearless in the pulpit and boldly proclaimed Truth, whether it was popular or not. However, he was very careful not to offend persons with a lack of tact, a lack of gentleness, a lack of attention, a lack of expressed appreciation, or a lack of friendliness. It was a real adjustment for me, getting used to the more blunt, take-it-or-leave-it approach of many priests. It helped a great deal when I began thinking of priests as personal coaches in holiness. One expects a certain blunt toughness from a coach.
Typically, fraternal correction from a fellow layperson in the Baptist faith would be limited to discussions within a Sunday School class session and most participants (there are always a few exceptions, of course) would be shy about directly correcting another. Part of the phenomenon is, I think, the emphasis our secular, godless culture places on regarding anyone's sincere belief or practice as worthy and deserving of respect. Part of it is the graciousness of Southern culture which recoils at directly "confronting" or embarrassing another (though backbiting is an option for some, alas).
Among devout Catholics there is an intense concern for one's own salvation and for the salvation of relatives and friends who are also professing Catholics. That concern has a much higher priority in their approach to others than tact, gentleness, or Southern graciousness. It took me a little while to adjust and to realize that the more they loved me and the more convinced they were of my sincere desire for deep conversion, the more ready they became to give me fraternal correction.
Now I experience it as love and rejoice that I am in daily contact with persons who care that much about my soul. Through God's grace I have also realized that He uses fraternal correction as a kind of power spray to hose off some of my pride. I love being a Catholic! There truly is the sense that my friends and advisors and I are working together, helping each other to get to heaven.
Would some of you share your past and present experiences with fraternal correction? And some of your insights about the importance of receiving it and giving it, within the context of Catholic teaching?
BeckyLast edited on Thu Apr 3rd, 2008 11:56 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 12:31 am |
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Sharing personal experiences with "fraternal correction"... hm. I will only say this: If one is going to "admonish their brother in love" as St. Paul tells us to do and as, apparently, the Catechism does also, then they'd better be very, very careful that it IS loving. I know from experience how "fraternal correction" can backfire.
OK, I don't particularly like sharing this because it's rather personal and was a source of great pain for me. But, in the interest of helping people to get a handle on how - or rather, how not to - "fraternally correct" someone, I will share this experience.
Years ago, back when I was in college (I went to a very Catholic college back in the late '80's - back in the days of "self-help groups" and a culture that was highly focused on all things dysfunctional), I was a very negative kind of a person. I had grown up in a loving family, but yes, there was some dysfunction in that one of my parents tended to be very negative and cynical and passed that tendency on to some of us children (I emphasize the word so you know I don't "blame" my parents for my own bad attitude).
Well, let's just say that ignorance is bliss sometimes. I didn't know I was a negative person. Honestly. I didn't. Well, my first day of college, I met my new roommate. We decided to go for a walk around the campus to check it out. On the way back, I don't remember what I was saying, but all of a sudden she turned to me and said something like, "Why do you do that?" I looked at her blankly and said, "Do what?" She said, "Why do you bring yourself down? It brings me down."
I literally stopped in my tracks with my mouth agape. It had never, ever occurred to me in more than 20 years that by putting myself down (I suppose it was some odd form of self-protection; I guess I had some sort of twisted reasoning that if I brought myself down it wouldn't hurt as much as it would if someone else would bring me down) - anyway, it never occurred to me that bringing myself down could result in bringing someone else down. I had never ever meant to hurt anyone else by saying negative things about myself.
Well, as you can imagine, that gave me a lot to think about. But, unfortunately, old habits die hard. I didn't have time to correct a years-old attitude before other students (who were in this "fraternal correction" mode that was popular around campus at that time) would try to "admonish me in love" and tell me how negative I was - all in the name of trying to "help " me, of course.
Now, I don't know how many of you might have figured out how this affected me psychologically, but it wasn't good. All of this "loving correction" only served to make me see myself as a horrible person and turned me into a more depressed and negative person than I already was to begin with. Going from a negative person to one who found out she was a negative person to one who was made to believe that I was a negative person who was hurting other people only served to make me feel horrible about myself.
Now, I will say that the priests, God bless them, were a little smarter than the students. In fact, I think they must have seen some of the effects of this tendency towards "fraternal correction" because sometimes at Mass in their homilies they would warn us about the dangers of trying to "correct" people. They would warn us that sometimes we could do more harm than good and that we had to be very careful and pray a lot before taking any kind of corrective action.
I could only agree. Please be careful how you handle this "fraternal correction."
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 01:24 am |
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Hi, Cheri,
I always enjoy your posts.
When our son was in the first grade, he hated school. Every afternoon when my husband picked him up, little son jumped right into a long list of everything horrible about his day. His wise father made a rule that upon entering the car, son was required to tell about at least one positive experience from his day before beginning the long negative list. Later, he was limited to two negative comments. It worked.
Now that he is an adult, I have to be careful around my son. If he thinks I'm even thinking about focusing on the negative, he calls me on it. That's good because, somehow as we get older and older and older  , it also gets easier to complain and whine. I have to watch myself on that.
I agree that any correction should be done in love. Doing it in private is kind as well, although that can be a tough call where public behavior or public comments have been involved. However, we probably need to give consideration to things others bring to our attention, especially when the same thing keeps coming from different sources. Decades ago when both my father and my husband charged me with the same fault, it was high time for me to take stock.
I remember one situation in which more than one person had pointed something out to me. I truly didn't see it and needed coaching and explanation. I finally asked somebody, "What do they mean when they say I am such and such? What am I doing that makes them say that about me?" Pretty dense on my part, but at least that person helped me finally see the light and understand how I needed to change.
I don't want to lose the focus of this thread, though. It isn't about pointing out picky stuff that we happen to find annoying in others. It's about helping each other, in a spirit of humility and love, to move closer into conformity with God's will so that we can get to heaven.Last edited on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 02:08 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 06:24 am |
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Whoa! I found a powerful three pages on fraternal correction: Meditation 118 from Divine Intimacy by Father Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen, O.C.D. Here's a sample:
Men see but the exterior, and therefore, even when it is their duty to correct us, they do not always evaluate correctly, but may often make mistakes either by excess or by deficiency. If we are willing to accept only the observations which perfectly correspond to our faults, we will very often be in danger of making excuses, protesting, giving explanations, and if we cannot do this outwardly, we shall do it at least interiorly. Thus we will lose the benefit we could have derived from the corrections, had we received them with humility of heart.
As a Baptist, I feasted on My Utmost for His Highest. As a Catholic, I feast on Divine Intimacy. I so wish I could quote the entire meditation for you. It is magnificent. Wish I could afford to send every forum member a copy of Divine Intimacy.
I am weeping with thanksgiving that Catholicism has brought into my life several persons (but two spiritual counselors in particular) who correct me. I sense God's love and mercy so strongly in that correction.
Order Divine Intimacy by clicking here.
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sun Apr 6th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: [size=Hi, Cheri,
...we probably need to give consideration to things others bring to our attention, especially when the same thing keeps coming from different sources. Decades ago when both my father and my husband charged me with the same fault, it was high time for me to take stock.
I remember one situation in which more than one person had pointed something out to me. I truly didn't see it and needed coaching and explanation. I finally asked somebody, "What do they mean when they say I am such and such? What am I doing that makes them say that about me?" Pretty dense on my part, but at least that person helped me finally see the light and understand how I needed to change...]
Becky,
Hi. Thanks for the response. I got to thinking... I really hope I didn't give the wrong impression. I hope I didn't make myself out to sound like I was pitying myself or something. What you have said in your posts makes sense, and I'm well aware that there is much benefit in fraternal correction and that when more than one person tells you something about yourself you need to listen because obviously there's something there.
I guess I was just trying to say that yes, while fraternal correction is valuable, one must be careful that they don't do more harm than good when they go to "call someone on." Maybe what I'm trying to say is that sometimes I think people feel like it's up to them to change a person. I'm not suggesting that anyone leave a person to continue in ways that might be harmful; I'm just suggesting that maybe that person is already struggling to overcome their ways and then to have someone else hound them about it can just backfire by snapping that already thin little thread of healing. I was using myself as an example because I know how I was affected personally by something like that. I guess I was trying to say that one needs to be careful how the "correction" is meted out. If it's too much at one time from too many directions it can be kind of like... if you're sick and you get overmedicated, ya know? I guess that's all I was trying to say. One needs to be careful about the "dosage," so to speak, and how it's administered. I hope I didn't give the impression that I don't think people should be admonished about any bad behaviors that they have, because that's not what I meant at all. (I'm not saying that you thought I did - I just got to thinking that maybe that was the impression I was giving... am I being clear as mud, as usual?  ).
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:11 am |
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Cheri, I do understand the points you are making. You seem to have been wounded by efforts to draw you away from a specific pattern of behavior and would like, I think, to protect others from being wounded in the same way. You give us important reminders to be loving. I think you would also like correction to be made gently and humbly. It is probably safe to conclude that you have been attentive, responsive, teachable, and obedient to correction.
Unfortunately, I must confess that in the past I was none of these. Sometimes the Lord and persons dealing with me needed a 2 X 4. I was proud, impatient, full of my own will, and eager to win compliance from others. Obviously, several whacks (not gentle taps, not tentative suggestions, not mild protestations) were required before I began to see what I was. The tone St. Paul typically used for correcting wayward believers was, no doubt, chosen because he had dealt with plenty of folks like me and knew a firm stance was required.
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Within this thread my focus is on understanding what the Church teaches about fraternal correction and its contribution to conversion; clarifying in my heart what I personally need to do, cease, or change in order to come into full obedience to that teaching; sharing what I have learned about fraternal correction; and learning from the experiences of others regarding this important contributor to conversion.
Everything seems to be interwoven in Catholicism. Pull the thread of fraternal correction and discover how much work remains to be done in crucifying pride. Which of these four categories most often describes our response to fraternal correction? If we are truly imitating Christ, in which category will we find ourselves?
1. I am unable to receive any fraternal correction.
2. I can accept fraternal correction only if it is based on a completely accurate assessment of me and only if it is delivered gently, humbly, lovingly.
3. I can accept fraternal correction even if it is based on an assessment of me that is not totally accurate or fair and even if the delivery lacks complete gentleness, humility, and love.
4. I can accept fraternal correction even if it is based on a false or unjust charge and even if the delivery is harsh and unloving.
For too many years I was in category one. God forgive me for being so full of pride.
After reading Meditation 118 from Divine Intimacy by Father Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen, O.C.D., I am coming to a deeper understanding of how God can use fraternal correction to crucify pride.
Repugnant to me in the past, fraternal correction is now cause for rejoicing. If our priorities are properly ordered---conformity to the Divine Will at the top of the list---we will crave that which helps us toward the goal.
I am thinking out loud in these posts and hoping someone else also benefits.
Becky
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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BeProf
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:33 pm |
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If anyone wondered where fraternal correction came from biblically...
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matt. 18:15-17 (ESV)
And "the church" there is usually interpreted to mean "the Pastor" or "the Bishop" by both Protestants and Catholics. This isn't an airing of someone's dirty laundry in front of the entire congregation. This is a formal disciplinary procedure carried out by the leadership of the local church.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 06:15 am |
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from Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
FRATERNAL CORRECTION. "Brother reproving a brother." It usually involves a serious fault, either unknown as to gravity by the offender or hoped to be corrected by such admonition. It is an exercise of fraternal charity when commendably done. It should never be exercised merely for the sake of the offended, but mainly to help the offender or benefit a third party. In some religious communities it is a recognized form of fostering humility and a valuable aid to growing in Christian perfection.
Click here for Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
The passage from Matthew offers proper procedure for addressing a situation in which one believer has hurt another. Fraternal correction is much broader than that, also including admonitions about behaviors, words, attitudes, or omissions that are not in compliance with Church teaching or that are not appropriate for a follower of Christ. Any verse of scripture about encouraging or exhorting each other to imitate Christ and conform to the Divine Will would be helpful in a discussion of fraternal correction.
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 11:39 am |
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I like how it's explained here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm
Fraternal correction is here taken to mean the admonishing of one's neighbor by a private individual with the purpose of reforming him or, if possible, preventing his sinful indulgence. This is clearly distinguishable from an official disciplining, whose mouthpiece is a judge or other like superior, whose object is the punishment of one found to be guilty, and whose motive is not so directly the individual advantage of the offender as the furtherance of the common good. That there is, upon occasion and with due regard to circumstances, an obligation to administer fraternal correction there can be no doubt. This is a conclusion not only deducible from the natural law binding us to love and to assist one another, but also explicitly contained in positive precept such as the inculcation of Christ: "If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother" (Matthew 18:15). Given a sufficiently grave condition of spiritual distress calling for succor in this way, this commandment may exact fulfillment under pain of mortal sin.
I don't think I would have a problem with a friend offering advice or offering advice to a friend. To me, this is what this boils down to. Hashing out a problem or offering help with a friend.
I don't think I could go up to an acquaintance and tell them they shouldn't be doing such and such. And I don't think I would take correction very well from a person with whom I know very little about and knows very little about me.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 12:45 pm |
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Ali wrote:I don't think I could go up to an acquaintance and tell them they shouldn't be doing such and such. And I don't think I would take correction very well from a person with whom I know very little about and knows very little about me.
Isn’t this why “fraternal correction” has to do with correcting our “brother” and not a stranger? Of course you are right; we should deal in this manner only with those whom we know well enough to assure that they would actually benefit from our criticism instead of rejecting it.
Which brings up the whole topic of judgmentalism and what the real difference is between “correcting” someone and “judging” him. How do we distinguish between these two terms, so differently portrayed in scripture and the Church’s spiritual tradition, and how is it that people so tend to confuse them?
David
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 04:21 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
. . . Which brings up the whole topic of judgmentalism and what the real difference is between “correcting” someone and “judging” him. How do we distinguish between these two terms, so differently portrayed in scripture and the Church’s spiritual tradition, and how is it that people so tend to confuse them?
David
We are told to take heed and consider ourselves, lest we also fall.
Like Cheri, I have been stung in the past or have winced when persons without sufficient sensitivity, tact, humility, or charity have clumsily launched into efforts at correcting another. I'm not sure how we are to protect folks from such persons. One lady suggested listening and then ignoring the person.
On the other hand, fraternal correction clearly has a role. I've been thinking I personally probably need to put more effort into gaining whatever spiritual help I can from all corrections that come my way (See # 4 above.) rather than into protecting myself from hurt feelings or clumsy "teachers."
Actually, David, I was hoping you would answer these questions, rather than pose them. 
I'd love to hear your thoughts on these issues.
Becky
Last edited on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 04:23 pm by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 04:45 pm |
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Actually, David, I was hoping you would answer these questions, rather than pose them.
And I was hoping to see a discussion develop. Why not give it a chance?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 05:35 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: Actually, David, I was hoping you would answer these questions, rather than pose them.
And I was hoping to see a discussion develop. Why not give it a chance?
Well, I guess I'll throw something out ...
I think it's important to correct without judgment. We can call to someone's attention the appearance they are giving, or the example they are setting, without resorting to naming sins they may be committing. I think of the TV ads that are running now about blocking out adult content. They're not saying there's anything wrong with the TV show, only that they can't allow it into their household.
If someone is setting a bad example, I can call that to their attention without judging their own behavior. As a friend, would you mention to someone if their pants were ripped, or they had a stain, or something stuck in their teeth? What if their body odor was strong enough that others avoided them, or their breath was so bad they might have a serious dental problem? (We become accustomed to odors and tastes, so the person might well not be aware of the problem.) Or if they had a large brown growth on the back of their neck that they couldn't see? Would you care enough for them to mention that they are setting a bad example, and so others might not want to associate with them?
There's a big difference between "here's what you're doing wrong" and "here's what I see that looks wrong". In one case you're judging a behavior; in the other, you're pointing out an appearance that may or may not indicate improper behavior, and that a person might have never considered.
So I think fraternal correction is possible, but it must be done with charity and never with judgment or accusations.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Intercessor
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 02:12 am |
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We probably have different levels of interest among those reading this thread. For those with the time and interest, here's an url for St. Augustine's treatise on rebukes and grace.
Click here to read St. Augustine's Treatise on Rebuke and Grace.
Here's a brief section for those not wanting to read the entire treatise:
from St. Augustine's A Treatise on Rebuke and Grace
Let no one therefore say that a man must not be rebuked when he deviates from the right way. . . . Let no considerate and believing man say this. For if such an one is called according to the purpose, beyond all doubt God is co-working for good to him even in the fact of his being rebuked. But since he who rebukes is ignorant whether he is so called, let him do with love what he knows ought to be done; for he knows that such an one ought to be rebuked.
Ed, thanks for giving us that passage in Matthew.
Ali, the New Advent material was a great addition. Thanks.
Rick, I appreciate your comments. It's much easier to accept a correction when it is delivered in the spirit you described.
Another example of how things are interwoven in Catholicism—we confess our sins to a priest, in part, because he is a representative of the Church, whose members we have injured with our sinning. We are one Body. What affects one, affects the others—good or bad. Similarly, a fraternal correction is a loving act toward the offender and is simultaneously a loving, protective act toward other members in the one Body who stand to be injured if the offender continues with deeds, words, attitudes, omissions which are not appropriate for one trying to imitate Christ and conform to the Divine Will.Last edited on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 05:22 am by Intercessor
____________________
"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 12:20 am |
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David W. Emery wrote:
Ali wrote:I don't think I could go up to an acquaintance and tell them they shouldn't be doing such and such. And I don't think I would take correction very well from a person with whom I know very little about and knows very little about me.
Isn’t this why “fraternal correction” has to do with correcting our “brother” and not a stranger? Of course you are right; we should deal in this manner only with those whom we know well enough to assure that they would actually benefit from our criticism instead of rejecting it.
Which brings up the whole topic of judgmentalism and what the real difference is between “correcting” someone and “judging” him. How do we distinguish between these two terms, so differently portrayed in scripture and the Church’s spiritual tradition, and how is it that people so tend to confuse them?
David
Regarding the red material above--
Could these reflections help one see the difference between correcting and judging?
--a generally spectacular person could have a problem in one area and could benefit from a correction given by another who has not reached that person's level of holiness yet (When correcting another, I should understand that I may be at a lower level of holiness than the person I am correcting.)
--an individual does not reach maturity in all areas simultaneously--a person making good spiritual progress in some things might still need a correction in other areas (I should understand that although this person has fallen short in one area, he/she may be enjoying good spiritual progress, in general.)
--we have different weaknesses and different strengths (I should not expect another to be mature in my own area of strength. He/she probably is stronger than I am in other areas.)
--we sometimes see our own weaknesses as less significant than those of others (I must avoid thinking that my own sins are less serious than the sins of the one I am correcting.)Last edited on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 05:44 am by Intercessor
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 950 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 04:47 am |
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from another thread:
David W. Emery wrote:
kimdyuma wrote:I do wonder how much our of society's problems stem from a lack of "moral judging"
Credo Catholic wrote:Don't you think it's hard to excercise moral judgement nowadays?
This is precisely the point I was attempting to get people to discuss theoretically the other day in the “Fraternal Correction” thread. Now we have a practical example of how a shocking moral aberration prompts people to voice their adherence to natural law by deploring not just the sin but also the sinner. Then those on the other side accuse these people of being “judgmental” — and with good reason.
Annie is right in calling for true Christians to love the sinner while hating the sin. For without fraternal charity in every case, there is no defense for one’s moral position. Jesus makes this point strongly when he speaks of the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9–14). God sends his rain upon the just and the unjust; we should likewise love the unrepentant along with the repentant. Yes, we must stand our ground morally, but we must not do so in a manner that denigrates other human beings. That is hypocrisy. We have an equal obligation to love our enemy (Matthew 5:43–44); that is part of loving our neighbor as ourselves, and it needs to be part of our moral high ground.
David
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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