 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 02:53 am |
|
Dear CH Friends,
I have been thinking quite a bit about the matter of our salvation lately. What could be more important than our eternal destiny and our knowing the truth regarding it?
For many years, I handed out tracts on being "Born Again" and "Being Saved" as an Evangelical. These tracts would always have the "Sinner's Prayer" at the end, summing up that if the person reading the tract said this prayer with sincerity, and really believed it, they would indeed be saved and go to Heaven. Yet, I prayed with many, and knew of many, who said this prayer and never showed any sign of Christian faith, either in word or deed. Then there were the others, whom I knew, who said this prayer, and experienced a radical life change. They showed signs of Christian faith. They read the Bible, evangelized, prayed, and by all outward accounts and signs, were living as faithful Christians. Then these same people, after a number of years, left the Christian faith, de-converted so-to-speak.
Now, I have never believed in eternal security, but still I would wonder, did these folks ever really "get saved/born again?" Perhaps, I thought, they were just pretending all along. After all, I couldn't see their hearts. Often, I would think that there was still the possibility, that since they were still alive, they could return to the Lord as the Prodigal Son had. But then there were some whom I knew that died, and I didn't know for certain what their eternal destiny was, even though I knew that they weren't living as Christians at the time of their death. Still, I considered they could have repented at the last moment.
So, in saying all the above, lately I have wondered just how little reassurance the Sinner's Prayer really offers someone. And it isn't even in the Bible, which is odd, since Sola Scriptura Christians are so emphatic about it. "When did you get saved?" (response) "What exactly do you mean by that?" (response) "Did you ever say the Sinner's Prayer and repent of your sins and ask Christ to fill you with His Spirit?" (or a slight variation on this, but you get the idea) So if the Sinner's Prayer is so effectual, and has the power that these tracts say it does, then why the scenario which I have presented above? And this occurs in thousands of Protestant Churches everywhere. Many "come forward" to "say the prayer" and never live as a Christian, but go back to their own ways. Or many do for a while and then fall away. Now the reality of this occurring is not perplexing to me, because Jesus spoke about this very thing in the parable of the Sower and the Seed.
However, the question I have of late is, why should Protestants believe that saying the Sinner's Prayer is automatically a sign of being born again/saved? Yet, they cannot believe the same about Baptism, which Jesus specifically commanded his apostles to do when evangelizing. Doesn't it make more sense that baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with water, according to Jesus' command, would have more effect than saying the Sinner's Prayer?
And what of those that fall away? Many Protestants say they are eternally saved. What kind of salvation is this? And what motivation to live for God and deny our fleshly desires if after we say the Sinner's Prayer, we go to Heaven anyway, no matter what? Well, of course that is an absurdity. And what if we decide that after living as a Christian for a while, it just isn't worth the sacrifice? No problemo. According to E.S., we make it to Heaven anyway? What kind of cheap salvation is that? Christ didn't die for our sins just so we could crucify Him all over again.
So for all those Protestants who insist that one must say that prayer in order to be saved/born again, my response is, what actual effect does that prayer result in if so many just go on living the same way as before? Why did Jesus command the apostles to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit if it is meaningless? Why do you place more meaning on a prayer, that you have constructed which is not literally in the Bible (very good for literal Protestants, "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it") than on Jesus command to baptize according to the Trinitarian formula, which is explicitly stated in the Bible? And how can you definitively say that children are not, under any circumstances, supposed to be baptized? (Believer's Baptism Protestants) Do you mean to tell me that all those households in the Acts of the Apostles, consisted only of adults who arrived at the age of reason? And where is it stated in the Bible anywhere, about the "age of reason?" And how do you know what that age is? Some say five yrs old, others ten, others twelve, which is it?
I think I'll stake my claim on Jesus command to His apostles. No questioning there about whether a person was sincere in their heart. The water cleanses, and the blessing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is effectual. "Unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 746 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 03:45 am |
|
My thoughts on the sinners prayer as a formula for salvation. Unbiblical. Bad idea. But when it hits the right person at the right time and is used in sincerity it can definitely be at the very least a starting point of salvation. To me, no prayer or magic formula will save anyone, but I do think that it is belieiving in Jesus in a way that we trust and rely on Him and FOLLOW Him that counts.
The sinners prayer as words can not help anyone. As a lifestyle or lifelong renewed commitment it is effective. It is all about living the repentance, and actually not just asking Jesus into ones heart, but truly making Him Lord of our life more and more each season of life.
The problem is in the evangelical view of conversion and how oversimplified it is and lacks in a call to discipleship as part of genuine salvation. They fail to see conversion as a lifelong event that does at times begin in a powerful instant, but must never be something we simply stop "working out with fear and trembling..." They separate sanctification from salvation as if it were not necessary.
To me the Mass covers all the sinners prayer or conversion should be about. Each mass is a renewal of repentance, confession that Jesus is Lord. And as far as an altar call, well we can actually receive Jesus as Lord each mass and be given grace to persevere, if we use it. To me the Church is what we need to best be receiving our slavation where we actually partake in the sacrifice of Calvary and eat the passover Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
The Church never leaves us satisfied with a prayer we once said. No, it calls us to continual lifelong love and growing intimacy with Jesus, and gives us the tools to do this. To me the sinners prayer is ok, but many Catholic prayers for hundreds of years have contained the same elements of seeking forgiveness and laying one's life in Christ's hands.
It seems a weakness among some Catholics, is missing the simplicity of the gospel amidst possibly failing to pay close enough attention to what the prayers of the church really are. I think there is enough in the Lord's prayer that Jesus gave us to cover what a saving relationship with God is all about. But people need to wake up to this. Sometimes they are so close to it, and so familiar with it that they dont get it till someone gives it to them in a simplified form. I hate to see CAtholics leave the faith and claim they never knew or heard the gospel when it was there the whole time, just not in some oversimplified approach (which is kind of dangerous).
So I would say many Catholics could embrace this kind of conversion (as a starting or renewal point) wheras the evangelicals need to realize that Baptism as you say is the normal means of making entering into the Christian faith, which calls for continula conversion and growth in Holiness in our relationship with God, and not just thinking of it as covered by a few minutes of faith.
I am ignoring the baptism issue because I just wanted to go on a tangent about conversion and gospel tracts and the sinners prayer and whatnot. But I agree that baptism needs to be rediscovered as what it is in the process of conversion.
|
|
|
Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 660 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 02:56 pm |
|
My friend and I have talked extensively about this. She is a Baptist (although a jean wearing, dancing, alcohol drinking one - so it's your call  ). She teases me now about where I am IRT faith. Cause you know, I was never stepping foot in a Catholic church. EVER! LOL We have some pretty lively discussions, with each of us knowing we are going to convert the other one. It is an interesting sharing of ideas, and seeing our similarities in faith once we set religion aside.
Anyway I questioned her about the "once saved always saved" thing. It sort of fits your your last paragraphs about falling away after accepting Jesus or being Saved.
It makes sense to think that, since only God knows our hearts, that those people are not truly saved to begin with. They may think it and act it and profess it. But something in their heart prevents it from being true.
A child molestor is not saved, even though he professes it. How could that be so? She believes that God would not allow that to happen. She also believes that a person accepts God in their youth, and turns into a sinner (for Catholics, mortally so). Those sinful thoughts were always written on their hearts. God saw that, and denied them their salvation. Regardless of outward apperances.
Now, too me, I'm glad she can reconcile with herself all these questions. I had to do enough explaining away of key scriptures as a JW. Now, I'm content to let God explain himself. And He does it so well within the Catholic Church. And to me, that's what it all comes down to. Catholicism makes sense. I don't have to twist or explain away scriptures that get in the way of my "truth."
I hadn't heard her mention the Sinner's Prayer, though. Or maybe I don't remember {shrug} Is that a Baptist thing, too? If we get to talk about religion again, I want to remember to ask her.
Thanks for the great post 
Ali
|
|
|
Truthseeker
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 349 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 11:53 am |
|
I was born again in high school and it lasted as long as I has "access" to the people who helped me become that way. Once I stopped seeing them (through a friend I lost touch with), I went back to my wicked ways. During the time, though, I was sincere about my faith.
Love, Laura
____________________
Lord, please make my will your Will!
|
|
|
boxerpaws
Member
| Joined: | Fri Jan 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | boxerpaws | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 03:33 pm |
|
"that those people are not truly saved to begin with."this is the big problem with OSAS,a saving faith and being saved as understood by some denominations.If someone falls all one can say is that one wasn't REALLY saved,or had a REALLY saving faith.So i call it(no disrespect meant)the doctrine of the REALLY saved or the REALLY saving faith. I don't see scripture teaches eternal security.I've often been given the booklet that reads;"if you died tonight would you know if you are going to heaven?"
I don't see that scripture says we have to or that that we should.
What i see is conditional.If you persevere,if you continue on,if you put His teachings into practice and warnings;you too will be cut off.etc. There's zillions of just such passages. St. Paul tells us he's running the race to the end to victory. We cannot judge future behavior on present events. What a Catholics knows is that what God says He will do,He will do.What we have is hope and dependence on God's justice and mercy. We constantly ask for forgiveness and grace.
We always remind ourselves we are sinners and that it was our sin that crucified Christ;yet we are always reminded that we are to strive for perfection and to love God and neighbor as ourselves.It's a constant(not one time)conversion.We,throughout our lives,turn our hearts to God.Sometimes we need to turn our hearts back to God.Catholics do this through the sacrament of confession(reconciliation.)Yep,there are Catholics who are not as disposed as others to the grace God gives there and they give ppl the impression they needn't worry if they sin again because they can always go back to confession.On one hand that's a comfort and a sign of God's willingness to take a sinner back.On the other hand it is a sign of our weakness and maybe lack of real conversion that comes with a mature faith.But MOST Catholics do as they pray in confession;the words of the Act of Contrition end with a promise .."and to AMEND MY LIFE" Amen.
We don't judge ourselves for one.For another we cannot always depend on our intellect which can sometimes rationalize or can have a misinformed or badly formed conscience.So confession is God's promise to us of what HE will do.Not neccesariliy how up to speed we are so to speak.You can go into confession contrite;at least knowing that what you did was wrong. We can even just fear the loss of heaven and the pains of hell(as we also say in the contrition).That's good enough.True sorrow for sin and remorse is better,but Jesus did give the power to forgive sins as long as we approach Him in confession.So if you see a Catholic that does the same thing week after week in spite of confession it may be that he's not disposed yet to the grace God offers there,but at least as we know,Jesus promised that those sins could be forgiven.Catholics see salvation as a life long turning to God until the end.Not a one time thing.And we definitely beleive we can fall.
Besides,scripture tells us we can have faith that moves mountains and no love..it means nothing.So just having faith can't be it.In the end three things will last;faith,hope,love.The greatest? Not faith(though it's one)-love.
GB!~
p4p
Attachment: godblessamericaangel1.gif (Downloaded 60 times)
|
|
|
Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 05:47 pm |
|
Boxerpaws,
OSAS and ppl, what do they stand for? Pretty soon, we will all be writing in acronisms, abbreviations and symbols out here in cyberspace.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
|
|
|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 06:57 pm |
|
OSAS is probably "once saved, always saved."
ppl seems to be "people."
BFN!
Jill
:-)
bye for now....
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1792 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 10:07 pm |
|
Cryptic abbreviations are not new, Darlene. Back in the day, I was pretty handy with telegraphy (my preferred tool was a Vibroplex Original — BodRod may recall them), and the telegraphic tradition of abbreviations dates back to the 19th century. I even remember when LOL still meant “Little Old Lady”!
David
|
|
|
kololam77
Banned
| Joined: | Tue Aug 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Berlin, Germany |
| Posts: | 67 |
| First Name: | Matthew | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | catholic, nothing, charismatic evangelical, conservative lutheran, conservative evangelical - moving ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 20th, 2007 06:21 am |
|
Thanks Darlene. I used to own part of a house in the Pocono Mts. - that was years ago of course. Have you seen any other international people posting on this site? As you probably have figured out, I am now married and I live in Germany. I also have lived quite a lot outside the U.S. as an Evangelical missionary - South America, Israel, and Thailand mainly.
I can report that I have led people to Jesus Christ - including 2 buddhist monks and one Israeli-Arab. In both scenarios discussions about the Christian faith were used, then the sinners' prayer was administered, and then in one case baptism immediately followed. Although I have humbly prided myself (can one actually humbly pride himself??) in the fact that as an evangelical I have done more for Jesus Christ than I ever did as a Roman Catholic. But here are some issues I too have confronted over the years of participating in what I consider to be professional church planting/establishing work (you see evangelicals are all about the local church - even thought they love to say "universal church" - so in some ways their ecclesiology is similar to that of the RCC):
There is no way of knowing if the sinners' prayer really works.
There is a misunderstanding of baptismal regeneration and original sin in many evangelical circles.
Because salvation from an evangelical perspective is not because of works, evangelicals then must attempt to understand just what all these "working" verses in the NT mean. Such verses are taught to mean that when one fulfills the deeds and works that God calls us to, he or she is filling up the heavenly bank account so to speak. In other words - works do not save us, but rather are an indication and evidence of our salvation (justification in this context) - and they will determine the responsibilities we will have as believers who inhabit the new heaven and the new earth.
Finally - although baptism is instructed by Jesus, Peter and the others were not using the baptism model first in Acts. It was a model of belief, repentance, and then baptism in most cases - therefore evangelicals are more willing to argue against the baptismal regeneration position.
Matthew
PS When I say evangelical, I am speaking of conservative, more charismatic leaning assmeblies - not LCMS Lutherans, liberal Protestant groups, or even infant baptizing Presbyterian assemblies - they believe in baptismal regeneration, yet are also considered evangelical by most people.
____________________
There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved other than the name of Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
Current time is 09:23 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
