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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 156 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer, Hebrew Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 08:08 pm |
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I have a question about Tobit. Tobit 6: 1-8, 16-17 1957 RSV Apocrypha:
1 Now as they proceeded on their way they came at evening to the Tigris river and camped there.
2 Then the young man went down to wash himself. A fish leaped up from the river and would have swallowed the young man;
3 and the angel said to him, "Catch the fish." So the young man seized the fish and threw it up on the land.
4 Then the angel said to him, "Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely."
5 So the young man did as the angel told him; and they roasted and ate the fish. And they both continued on their way until they came near to Ecbatana.
6 Then the young man said to the angel, "Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?"
7 He replied, "As for the heart and liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again.
8 And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured." ...
16 When you enter the bridal chamber, you shall take live ashes of incense and lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish so as to make a smoke.
17 Then the demon will smell it and flee away, and will never again return. And when you approach her, rise up, both of you, and cry out to the merciful God, and he will save you and have mercy on you. Do not be afraid, for she was destined for you from eternity. You will save her, and she will go with you, and I suppose that you will have children by her." When Tobias heard these things, he fell in love with her and yearned deeply for her.
Verses 7 and 17 appear to apply an occult magical remedy in order to ward off a demon. This appears to be in direct conflict with the Torah commandment of Dt. 18:9-15 NAS 1977.
9 ¶ "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations.
10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
13 "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
14 "For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.
15 ¶ "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Judaism does not recognize the deuterocanonicals as being canonical.
How does Catholic doctrine resolve this inherent conflict? How does Catholic doctrine view occult practices? Is there an issue when Catholicism encounters pagan religion, as in Central America and a (syncretistic?) blending appears to occur between traditional magical practices of these peoples and Roman Catholic sacraments/liturgy?
Within the Pseudepigrapha there are many apocalyptic texts (eg. The Enoch tradition) which give great detail about heavenly realms and the activities of angels. The Pseudepigrapha were not accepted by Jews Protestants, or Roman Catholics as canonical. I Enoch is accepted as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Again, they seem to emphasize occult and esoteric doctrine.
Henry
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HPJ
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 10:44 pm |
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I don't see burning "incense"(ok, in my book, fish guts would be a yucky incense, but the angel describes it that way) and crying out to the Lord as casting a spell. Jesus used mud and spit while healing the eyes of a blind man, isn't this a similar case of using an ordinary thing as sort of a visual aid?
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 4th, 2007 01:32 am |
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Hello again, Henry. The passage you cite from Tobit kind of reminds me of holy water or some other sacramental. In either verse, the evil one flees because of the prayers attached to the sacramental and the faith of the user. Therefore it is not a question of witchcraft, divination or casting a spell, but of believing in God and praying for his protection.
If you wish to press the point further, one could ask your interpretation of Genesis 30.
Judaism does not recognize the deuterocanonicals as being canonical.
We’d be happy to discuss this topic in a new thread.
David
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gmichuta
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 07:56 am |
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Another thing to think about is that the Protocanon also contains practices that on the surface seem unusual as well. We often, because we are familiar with the text, glance over these oddies without much thought. Consider Genesis 30:36-43.
In Genesis 30:36-43, Jacob used peeled rods to affect the color of his sheep. Those sheep that mated in eyesight of rods brought forth streaked or speckled offspring, which Jacob took for his own.
Here was have Jacob practicing a superstitious custom to produce flocks of certain color. We know that it was not the rods that produced the colored flocks, but God's will that changed the flocks for Jacob's benefit. However, no where in Scripture does God command or recommend anyone to engage in this practice. Indeed, God never commanded Jacob to do this. He certainly did not tell Jacob to engage in this superstitous custom, but God honored Jacob's intentions.
This seems to me to be far more problematic than the case in Tobit where a messenger from God (an angel) relates that God will cast away demons if Tobit performs an action. The former seems superstitious while the latter seems to be a sacramental.
I'm sure other examples can be given, but I think you can see my point. Hope this helps.
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Ray2007
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 08:25 pm |
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| Read online from The Ascent of Mount Cramel, by St. John of the Cross, Book 1, Chapter 2. I think this will help. I hope so. Ray
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 11:34 pm |
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Ray2007 wrote: Read online from The Ascent of Mount Cramel, by St. John of the Cross, Book 1, Chapter 2. I think this will help. I hope so. Ray
The Ascent of Mount Carmel is available from the Christian Classics Ethereal Library in several different formats.
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