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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 03:38 am |
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My husband was given this book to read by his friend who is an ex-Catholic and very much opposed to the Catholic faith. Since my husband has shown an interest in how the Bible was put together by various councils, his friend lent him this book. I read just a few pages and red flags went up. He disputes the validity of the "apocrypha" (word he uses) by saying that neither Jesus or the Apostles ever quoted from it. Has anyone ever read this book and if so, what do you think of it? From skimming over it, and looking up the authors he has quoted from, it definitely has a Protestant leaning to it. But my concern is whether is has an anti-Catholic bias. I would really like some input on this. Thanks.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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gmichuta
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 08:13 am |
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Darlene wrote: My husband was given this book to read by his friend who is an ex-Catholic and very much opposed to the Catholic faith. Since my husband has shown an interest in how the Bible was put together by various councils, his friend lent him this book. I read just a few pages and red flags went up. He disputes the validity of the "apocrypha" (word he uses) by saying that neither Jesus or the Apostles ever quoted from it. Has anyone ever read this book and if so, what do you think of it? From skimming over it, and looking up the authors he has quoted from, it definitely has a Protestant leaning to it. But my concern is whether is has an anti-Catholic bias. I would really like some input on this. Thanks.
Darlene Hi Darlene, McDowell's book is ok. He often just produces stats without any argument or description. His treatment of the Deuterocanon / "apocrypha" is atrocious. It's really, really bad. In my opinion, he pulls rabbits out of hats to justify the Protestant O.T. canon. I would recommend he picks up a copy of a new book called, Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger (GrottoPress.org). It relies almost entirely on either primary sources or Protestant sources to show why the Deuterocanon is Scripture and settle the question, "Did the Catholic Church add books to the Bible or did Protestantism remove them." McDowell does an ok job on showing the general reliablity of the New Testament, but he really drops the ball when it comes to the canon. Another book that is provides a good explaination of how the Church was instrumental in the preservation and distribution of the Bible is Henry Graham's How We Got The Bible: Our Debt To The Catholic Church (TAN Books). You can pick up either book on amazon or at their respective websites. These books will clear up whatever questions your husband has on the subject.
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 01:06 pm |
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Hi GM,
I am currently reading Graham's book, and while I like it (esp. the testimony of his conversion) the problem is that he does not have a thorough listing of his sources. Having been a History major, I know how important this is to prove the reliability of your information. Don't get me wrong, I am thoroughly enjoying the book. Graham's delivery, however, is a bit intense for someone like my husband. I will look into the other book you mentioned.
Does anyone know if there are any other resources out there regarding church history and councils that produce trustworthy sources.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2007 06:30 pm |
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Darlene,
Hope your husband is making a speedy recovery. If he's willing to put up with Josh McDowell, it looks as if he's making progress. McDowell will give Catholics and serious minded Protestants a batch of ulcers they don't need.
I can't consider McDowell a real serious religious historical scholar simply because as you demonstrated, his bias seeps out rather profusely.
He's popular with a lot of politically conservative evangelicals who'll also never consider converting or even to entertain the slightest interest in Catholicism or Catholic authors. Another overrated "scholar" is Dr. D. James Kennedy, the Sunbelt's contribution to the "vast right wing conspiracy" Sen. Clinton was so vexed about ten years ago. Kennedy should retire and hand his pulpit over, but as with a lot of big church protestant personality pastors, it's hard to rid oneself of the sin of pride, especially if they're really addicted to their applause.
The up-and-coming popular "church historian" within evangelical circles is Lee Strobel, a "find" of Bill Hybels. He's written some very popular books. My problem with him, or for that matter, any "popular" religious "historian" is that they tend to promote a party line, and often reach back into past books of theirs to fatten up the latest book that their publishers with $$s in their hearts and minds have pushed them to "write." My problem with Strobel is that he hasn't told me anything the nuns I had in elementary school hadn't already covered -- albeit in a much more convincing way than Strobel could even possibly dream of doing. Instead of getting deep into the analytical style of presenting what the Bible and history already teaches: the nuns told us about Jesus' miracles in ways that you couldn't wait to hear about the next one. Even Jesus' apostles would've caught on faster if they had nuns like I had. I still get a thrill when I remember how the good sister explained Jesus walking on water. After that, a kid was begging for a dunce cap if he didn't believe Jesus was divine.
I don't want to come off as a snob, like so many academics with degrees in history did when Shelby Foote wrote his popular Civil War series. His "mortal sin" in professors' eyes: he didn't have a ph.d and wasn't one of the club, and he was eating their lunch. (That probably was the clincher!) On the other hand, and especially when it comes to biblical history, the last thing we need is some huckster promoting his latest "find" or "discovery" of some "deep hidden biblical code" that'll reveal whether or not we'll go to war with with Iran over the Temple Mount, yadda yadda.
Hal Lindsey immediately comes to mind, and he's still very, very popular.
Which makes me even less sanguine when it comes to reasoning with the hard-core evangelicals who'd get us into a war for Israel in a heartbeat if their "history books" managed to convince enough of them to vote and put in somebody even more hawkish than Bush and his neo-cons.
I've gotta hunch that your husband got the McDowell book from a certain "Mr. A."
I guess if one's really desperate for some bathroom reading, McDowell might pass for a few minutes.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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mg57
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Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 12:35 am |
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Darlene -
"Does anyone know if there are any other resources out there regarding church history and councils that produce trustworthy sources.?"
Popularly written but very thorough -
Dissent From The Creed – Fr. Richard Hogan
http://catalog.osv.com/Catalog.aspx?SimpleDisplay=true&ProductCode=693
More Scholarly –
The Teachings Of The Church Fathers – Fr. John Willis S.J.
http://www.ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=698&SKU=TCF-P&Category_ID=62
The Faith Of The Early Church Fathers – Jurgens
http://www.amazon.ca/Faith-Early-Fathers-William-Jurgens/dp/0814604323
Patrology – Johannes Quasten
http://www.ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=690&SKU=P4-P&Category_ID=11
Non-Catholic Editor, but solid and may have more appeal to your husband, -
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs — Ed. By David Bercot
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Early-Christian-Beliefs/dp/1565633571
God bless.
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 03:36 am |
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Thanks MG for the resources. Stephen, it was not Mr. 'A' that gave my husband the McDowell book but rather a close friend of many years who is an ex-Catholic on a mission. 
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 12:05 pm |
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Darlene - Forgive me for overlooking the "ex-Catholic" part of your situation. Poor Mr. A. (Well, some guys make themselves a "usual suspect" for their works.)
Ex-Catholic, hmmmm. Now you've really got your work cut out! Their edginess is sharper, for sure. Not so much that they (really) have anything on their former home. And by that, I'm inclulding their worst personal beef, whether it's over a boorish cleric, the ever-convenient "mean nun," pedophile scandals, or whatever the heck the beef's about. To paraphrase Cardinal Newman, a ton of doubts and slights, however real, or imagined, won't equal a real reason to break away. The Church is always too expansive to allow it. There are many avenues to take if one really wants to solve a personal problem within the Church.
Ask this person if he's given a formal written break with the Church. If he hasn't, immediately ask why. Chances are he's having a ball bashing the Church but without the courage of his convictions to formally leave. No matter what his excuse is, remind him that he's still in the family and the fatted calf is still awaiting him, but only if he repents along the way.
Prayers and best wishes always for you and your husband - StevenLast edited on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 12:13 pm by Steven Barrett
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Apr 19th, 2007 10:42 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: Hey there Stephen!
Darlene - Forgive me for overlooking the "ex-Catholic" part of your situation. Poor Mr. A. (Well, some guys make themselves a "usual suspect" for their works.) Truth is, Mr. 'A' may very well be an ex-Catholic for all I know. I'll eventually get around to asking him, or he';ll blirt it out if he's left the fold. Ex-Catholics just can't help themselves in that regard. Sooner or later, they come out attacking the faith of their upbringing, don't you agree?
Ex-Catholic, hmmmm. Now you've really got your work cut out! Their edginess is sharper, for sure. Not so much that they (really) have anything on their former home. And by that, I'm inclulding their worst personal beef, whether it's over a boorish cleric, the ever-convenient "mean nun," pedophile scandals, or whatever the heck the beef's about. To paraphrase Cardinal Newman, a ton of doubts and slights, however real, or imagined, won't equal a real reason to break away. The Church is always too expansive to allow it. There are many avenues to take if one really wants to solve a personal problem within the Church. How did ya know, Stephen? Yep, one of his beefs is that a mean old nun called him and his brother Nazis. (He moved to the U.S. from Germany when he was 5 or 6 and knew very little English.) However, the nun didn't get away scott-free. She was called on the carpet for it and from what I recall, if my memory serves me right, she had to make a formal apology to him, his brother and the entire family.
Ask this person if he's given a formal written break with the Church. If he hasn't, immediately ask why. Chances are he's having a ball bashing the Church but without the courage of his convictions to formally leave. No matter what his excuse is, remind him that he's still in the family and the fatted calf is still awaiting him, but only if he repents along the way.
A number of months ago my husband confided in this man, who, btw, is now an Evangelical Christian, and hardline eternal security supporter. At the time that my husband confided in him, he was very distressed with my dabbling in Catholicism. He knew he would get a listening ear from a zealous ex-Catholic.
Prayers and best wishes always for you and your husband - Steven
Not all the ex-Catholics in the world can dissuade me from the Catholic Church if the Lord Jesus Christ wants me there, which I am more and more convinced of by the hours, not just the days.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Fri Apr 20th, 2007 04:34 pm |
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Hi Darlene,
Thanks for your reply. As for the "ex-catholics" (very few of those types who've taken the effort to put it on paper and walk out the door of both church and SALVATION), and their "arguments," it's a no-gainer to get into discussions with them. So I learned the hard way. One man I know is an Irish catholic from Dorchester, MA (a part of Boston that's even more Irish than the more popularly known South Boston, home of "Whitey" Bulger - a most definitely fallen black sheep) and he'd get all heated whenever mention of the nuns would come up. Inasmuch as I could empathize to a certain degree because every kid can tell a "war story" or two from both public and parochial schools, I had to remind him that not everybody has a horror story.
My friend, who had serious health problems, also lost everything due to his health problems and, inspite of his otherwise very pleasant demeanor, still embittered, and, of course, not just at the Church. But a year ago I talked to him and asked how his now hard-core evangelical ministry mission to Brazil went. Well, I asked for it and got it. According to him, you'd think the bishops were instructing all the carpenters to build scaffolds and settings for weekly auto-da-fes to accomodate a host of stake burnings. Oh, those nasty papists, why he claimed we were bringing back the inquisition to bring back all those who wandered to the evangelicals' (bread n' circus) missions.
Man alive! Those boys in the chanceries were constantly "going jihad" against the Protestants. And so on.
I couldn't respond because I was trying so hard not to laugh out loud on the phone. Somehow I did manage to try and ring his memory bells by reminding him that the Brazilian bishops haven't always been out of John Paul's doghouse for misteachings, liberation theology, etc. Went right over his head and out over the atlantic.
What he didn't 'fess up to was that the evangelical mision leaders have been known to use all sorts of the electrical bread n' circus gimmickry to coax a lot of Catholics who may indeed be upset with the bureaucracy of the hierarchy, and perhaps other matters (which our critics fail to mention are completely solve-able.) What I mean by the bread n' circus gimmickry is the kind of razzle-dazzle evangelism megachurhcianity is famous for.
That nun should've been more than forced to apologize. She should've been put on a plane and placed in a German convent for at least a year to get a taste of just how the Germans take any hints or whiffs of Naziism. I can remember while living there 40 plus years ago that anybody even jokingly raising the Seig Heil salute, saying "Heil Hitler" could be prosecuted. Now they've added Holocaust denial to their hate laws. (A trip to Dachau should cure that mental illness.)
The nun was guilty of prejudice and horribly bad manners. Still, on the hand, we fought a bitter war against a nation that didn't raise a finger to stop its leaders from going to war. Not all Germans, but most, supported the gradual rise of Hitler. And most Germans didn't complain a hoot during the Reich's years of peace so long as they had a rising economy, and Germany regained not only lost lands, but lost pride. That the labor unions were broken, opposition crushed, and Jews and other non-Aryan "untermensch" hauled out of their homes and thrown into concentration camps, that was tough luck. So long as they were world beaters at the war's beginning, every thing was "sehr (very) gut."
There's culpability on the man's former country's past - but he was just a boy and that dumb nun did more damage not only to a child, she inflicted a boomerang on the Church - a boomerang that you, an eventual convert, have to wrangle with the indirect after effects years later.
We can't win 'em all, and some folks are going to "blow it" when it comes to making the right decision about Catholicism, especially if they even grudgingly come to admit that what the Church says about itself is true as Fr. John Neuhaus pointed out in his book Catholic Matters, turning away from it is turning away from Salvation itself. Tough words, but true.
It's far more beneficial to everyone for us to pray for the return of the embittered than to argue with them. God will answer our prayers and His nudges are a lot more effective than ours.
Have a great weekend. See if you can get a hold of Neuhaus' book which came out last year (i believe). It's great reading, especially for a person like yourself desiring to become Catholic. But don't show it to your husband yet if you want him not to have another heart attack! Get him up to at least a mile a day before showing him any of Neuhaus' literary works.
Auf Wiedersehn!
S.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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pamflute
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Posted: Sun Apr 22nd, 2007 09:29 pm |
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Darlene:
Regarding the Josh McDowell book, I found it very interesting when I was a teenager. At that point in time I was looking for a general work on Christian apologetics and I liked the format of this book. Though I was not specifically looking into the Catholic church at that time, I did find some of his ideas intriguing (i.e., the church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, the church put the canon together). I asked myself "what church" and could not come up with a good answer. Being a good Protestant, McDowell is rather vague on this point - he just calls it the church, like we are supposed to know who that church was. At the very least, I think McDowell put an idea into my head that came to fruition years later.
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DrDave
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 02:24 am |
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Darlene, one strategy that I have found effective when talking to ex-catholics about personal hurts, is to tease out the separation between "the church" and "individual members of the church".
For example: Mr Not A has a beef with a nun who called him a nazi when he was 5. Maybe ask him sometime if it was official church teaching that all 5yo German immigrants be called nazis or was it the opinion of one individual. Then unless he claims to belong to a denomination where no-one ever sins (thereby not needing salvation) he has admitted that, at least in this case his problem is not with the church. Most times when pursuing this strategy, the worst they can come up with that can be squarely laid at the church's feet is a slowness to react (as with his family's apology) or a failure to act (which more often than not was due to a failure to report). Either way you are free to agree that what was done to them was deplorable, a speedier or different resolution might have been preferable from their perspective, BUT, it was not "the church" but rather "an individual acting contrary to the church's teachings" that caused the offence
Regards Dave
____________________
NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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Akathist
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 04:18 pm |
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The book is terribly inaccurate for any apologetic, and not only against Catholicism but poses poor arguments to counter Atheism etc...
I remember at one time Josh said Athanasius was a Church Father whose canon aligned with the Protestant version and therefore was a link. Well that sounds great unless you read what Athanasius wrote and realize he excluded Esther from his canon and regarded is as unscriptural. So where is Athanasius to the Protestants now?
____________________
"Because of you, Mother of God,
David the prophet became an ancestor of God.
Praising Him who worked wonders in you,
He Foretold you in joyous song:
The Queen stood at your right hand.
You are revealed as the mother of Life."
~ Tone 4, 8
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Apr 27th, 2007 05:40 pm |
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Akathist wrote: The book is terribly inaccurate for any apologetic, and not only against Catholicism but poses poor arguments to counter Atheism etc...
I remember at one time Josh said Athanasius was a Church Father whose canon aligned with the Protestant version and therefore was a link. Well that sounds great unless you read what Athanasius wrote and realize he excluded Esther from his canon and regarded is as unscriptural. So where is Athanasius to the Protestants now?
Aka, Are saying that Athanasius excluded Esther from his canon? I'm a bit confused by your comment. Can you clarify? Thanks.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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catholicdan
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Posted: Fri Jul 27th, 2007 05:36 pm |
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mg57 wrote:
Non-Catholic Editor, but solid and may have more appeal to your husband, -
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs — Ed. By David Bercot
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Early-Christian-Beliefs/dp/1565633571
God bless.
I will make a statement here for David Bercot (pronounced Bur-sow).
It was his works that actually drove me to my conclusions that I needed to come out of the Protestant church and set me on the path to Rome sweet home (borrowed that).
I have read all of his main books like "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up!" also known as the Heretics book, "Common Sense, An New Approach to Understanding Scripture", and "The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down". All books are from Scroll Publishing Co. http://www.scrollpublishing.com.
God used David in a big way to put me on the right path. I had the honor to spend a week with David's family in Taylor Texas with a friend of mine and it was a well spent week. I will add here that David is still in the bent of Protestantism but a lot of what he believes and lives lines up with Catholic teachings but he just doesn't see it yet but his treating of the Early Church Fathers is fair and scholarly.
David has an extensive background in Title Law where he takes land titles and has to find the right interpretation of the title. He has to do this without any bias from either the company he is hired by to study the title or the owner of the title. This gives him an edge on studying and interpreting the Early Church Fathers by applying the principles of interpretation of documents in their historic context and most natural and literal meaning. Like I stated earlier, David does still have some Protestant opinions but does his best to keep his opinion to a minimum.
I would recommend for those who are like Darlene's husband to take a look at the Heretics Book and as you suggested the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs. It will challenge the staunchest of Protestants in the very core of their understanding of what the Early Church believed, taught and lived.
The books that David has written have caused many to come home to Rome even though that was not his intent which I find very interesting.
Just my input,
Dan.
____________________
"To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant." Cardinal Newman
"Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux,
Non Draco Sit Mihi Dux"
May the Holy Cross be my Light.
Let not the dragon be my guide.
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mg57
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Posted: Fri Jul 27th, 2007 05:50 pm |
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Thanks for that bit of backround Dan ! In looking at your faith hsitory I admire you for "digging in" all along the Way.
I for one didn't know about his other books, - I'll have to have a look at the "Heretics" one you listed.
God bless.
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catholicdan
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Posted: Fri Jul 27th, 2007 06:21 pm |
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mg57 wrote:
Thanks for that bit of backround Dan ! In looking at your faith hsitory I admire you for "digging in" all along the Way.
I for one didn't know about his other books, - I'll have to have a look at the "Heretics" one you listed.
God bless.
You are welcome MG.
I have a lot of respect for David and his wife. They are still on the road to discovery even though the transition from Protestant to Catholic is something that he tends to not see. I know he has been through a lot. He was an Elder in the Jehovah's Witness Church and left after studying on the Early Church Fathers but went over to an Evangelical Church. Now his road has led him so far to more of an Annabaptist persuasion and I think that he moved to Pennsylvania for that reason.
He is a very educated man which I list below.
Who Is David Bercot?
David Bercot is a practicing attorney, author, and church historian. Outside of law, his special field of interest and study has been the early church (particularly the church prior to the Council of Nicaea, A. D. 325).
Bercot has authored five books:
Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up
The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down
Common Sense
Let Me Die in Ireland
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs
In addition to his books, Bercot speaks frequently on the subject of early Christianity and radical Christian discipleship. He has recorded nearly seventy lectures on Christian topics, particularly on Christian history and what the early Christians believed. Most of David Bercot’s books and teaching CDs are purposefully provocative, challenging today’s Christians to return to the radical Christian discipleship and doctrinal teachings of the primitive church.
Biographical Information on David Bercot
Bercot was born in 1950 in Anchorage, Alaska. However, except for three years that Bercot lived in England as a small boy, he lived the rest of his life in Texas until 2004. He has been married one time, and that is to his present wife, Deborah. They have been married over 34 years and have three children. David and his family now live in Pennsylvania. He and his family attend Shippensburg Christian Fellowship, a non-denominational church committed to the teachings of Jesus.
Bercot obtained his Bachelor of Arts degree summa cum laude from Stephen F. Austin State University in 1978 and his doctor of jurisprudence degree magna cum laude from Baylor University School of Law in 1980. Bercot limits his law practice to title examination.
If you are interested in writing to David Bercot, you may write to him c/o Scroll Publishing Co., P. O. Box 122, Amberson, PA 17210. Please understand that David is not able to carry on personal correspondence with his readers. We have posted a letter from him explaining why he is not able to correspond with his readers (even though he would like to!).]
INFO FROM: http://www.scrollpublishing.com.
Peace,
Dan.
____________________
"To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant." Cardinal Newman
"Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux,
Non Draco Sit Mihi Dux"
May the Holy Cross be my Light.
Let not the dragon be my guide.
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Current time is 08:23 pm | |
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