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RSWinCO
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Posted: Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 11:32 pm |
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| In the Greek, does Luke 1:28 translate as "Hail (Mary), full of grace" or "Hail (Mary), favoured one". I was surprised to find that my NAB Catholic Bible says "favoured one". I expected "full of grace" to be the more accurate tanslation. Which is more correct?
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"Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." John Henry Cardinal Newman
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Apr 24th, 2007 12:32 am |
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The traditional phrase “full of grace” (gratia plena in Latin) was coined by St. Jerome (4th century) in the process of translating the bible into Latin. I don’t know Greek, so I have to rely on commentators to tell me what it says. According to what I have read, the Greek root of the word used Luke’s gospel can mean either “grace” or “favor.” But the actual word is a highly inflected form of the root word, so its meaning almost certainly shifts and narrows somewhat.
I have seen any number of treatises and controversies over what the word means in the abstract. To me, this can be likened to futile beating of the air. The real sense is what it meant to the ancients who read it and used it in its original context and native culture. This means that I would trust St. Jerome’s take on it before I would accept a modern scholar’s analysis. He was just a lot closer to the action.
What I notice, meanwhile, as I look at new translations, is that there seems to be a trend, spurred on by the Vatican, of returning to the traditional rendering. For instance, in English, the recently released (2006) Revised Standard Version – Second Catholic Edition renders it “full of grace.” Meanwhile, its only slight older Protestant cousin, the New Revised Standard Version, has “favored one.” As to the New American Bible, I believe that the revised “favored one” (1993) is at least an improvement over the original (1970) NAB rendering, “Rejoice, O highly favored daughter.”
To round out, here are some links to explanations and explorations of the meaning of the Greek:
David
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Ray2007
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Posted: Sat May 12th, 2007 07:36 pm |
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| The Greek is 'kecharitomene.' It is the perfect passive particple having the sense of 'being filled with grace way in the past.' Mary was in her early teens and the Angel Gabriel addresses Her with a new name, as it were, even as all those chosen by God for special missions receive new names: Simon/Peter, Abram/Abraham, Jacob/Israel. This title, in the word 'kecharitomene,' is not used anywhere else of anyone else in scripture. It may be translated as 'one filled with grace' again with the sense of this happening not at that moment when Gabriel addressed Mary but way before (at Her conception, as we know by faith from the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception). It was not on condition of Her 'Fiat,' but the wholly gratuitous gift of God even as it was promised to our First parents in Gen. 3:15 (I will put emnity between thee and the Woman). Ray
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 07:36 pm |
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I would like to add something to this. As I began my search into Catholicism, I tackled issue after issue. but was scared to look into Mary. I was fascinated with the truth I was finding, and was sure that the Catholic teaching on Mary couldn't be right. So, one day, on a whim, I flipped open my Greek Bible. I am a history, classics, Latin, and Greek scholar. I turned to Luke, and read Gabriel's greeting to Mary. I was shocked. I about fell out of my chair. What was this?! David, you are right that it is the perfect passive participle. The word that forms the base means "to have grace." Now, what hasn't been mentioned here is the full implication of the use of the perfect. If the author merely wanted to say that it had happend in the past (the filling with grace), the aorist form could have been used. See, the perfect form not only means that the event happened way in the past, but that the event has IMPLICATIONS IN THE PRESENT. In addition, the Greek has a middle voice which would have been used if Mary had been filled with grace by something she herself had done in some way.
So, in reality, the Greek states, "Hail, Mary, who was at some point in the past filled with grace, with important inplications in the present, by some force outside of herself."
Yes, indeed, all that meaning was stated in a single, carefully chosen word. Wow. Like I said, I about fell out of my chair. I had thought that the imaculate conception, etc, was not just not in the Bible but contradicted the Bible, and then I found this! I was so shocked. I accepted Mary, just like that. I prayed my first rosary (and loved it!) that night.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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catholiceternal
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 07:47 pm |
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Racaela,
Thank you for such great explaination of such a difficult thing for many people to understand. May God bless your journey to the Church, you are in my prayers!
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 07:49 pm |
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| Racaela, I have no idea what you just said, but even so, it is music to my uneducated ears!! I think it's amazing that you found that word the way you did and understood it that way. Wow, it shines a new light on this subject that so many of us have grappled with. When we take the time and patience to really "listen" to the scriptures, they say so much more to us.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 09:17 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: I am a history, classics, Latin, and Greek scholar.
That's it. You are not under any circumstances ever permitted to leave this forum! 
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 09:46 pm |
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| Wow I' m impressed
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 12:13 am |
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Well, shoot, Rick, it sounds like I'm stuck, then. Honestly, ask me any time you have a question about the original Greek, and I'll do what I can. I do so love Greek.
Honestly, my parents schooled me well. See, I was homeschooled so they got to pick and choose what I studied based on my interest. My love of history manifested itself early (I was building pyramids and mummifying mice!), and I began studying Latin at age seven. In high school, I took four years of Greek and two years of Hebrew, these from a Southern Baptist minister who offered me lessons for free. I am now at university (I'll be a junior this year) studying Latin education, History, Classics, and Greek. A Catholic friend of mine pointed out a few weeks ago that God seems to have hand picked me for the Church, what with my Latin, Greek, and history. And actually, my love of history played a large part in my attraction to and acceptance of Catholicism.
And really, at school, my friends are completely used to me saying "well, let's go to the Greek," when there is a question over translations. It's like second nature.
But my discovery over Gabriel's salutation of Mary surprised me so much! I hadn't expected my knowledge of Greek to lead me there. See, if Mary was filled with grace at some point of the past by some power outside of herself, and if that action had implications now (as in, prepared her to take on the mission Gabriel put forward for her), well, the imaculate conception seems obvious.
And let me add this - here are my reasons for accepting the perpetual virginity of Mary. They don't have to do with the Greek, but they're both simply scripture.
First, Mary responds to Gabriel, "How can this be, for I know not a man." Um, Mary? That should be obvious. You're engaged to be married! How do you think you will concieve? Shouldn't Mary have figured, when the angel said she would concieve and bear a child, that this meant when she was married (presumably in the very near future) she would concieve and bear Joseph's child, the coming Messiah? So, why would she have asked how she would concieve? The only reason I can think of is if she had vowed herself to God as a virgin. Why, then, was she marrying Joseph? I don't have all the answers, but one possible thought is that it was dangerous, what with the Roman soldiers about, for a woman to be single. But then, this whole thought is just something I've come upon, it's not like I'm know anything for sure here.
Second, why in the world did Jesus give Mary to John if she had other sons? Tradition tells us that she lived the remainder of her life with John; this is fairly certain. If she had other sons, especially if they didn't believe (and we get the impression that Jesus' "brothers," probably close relatives, didn't believe right away, anyway), they would never have allowed her to enter the house of another.
Oh, I'll add a third point. Historically, if a Hebrew boy did not have siblings, his cousins would actually be called his brothers. I'm not just talking about the Aramaic words here, simply that in absense of actual siblings, a Jewish boy's cousins were essentially considered his brothers.
Anyway, I'm not sure why I got into that, but I like those arguments. So, thanks for listening.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 01:16 am |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: First, Mary responds to Gabriel, "How can this be, for I know not a man." Um, Mary? That should be obvious. You're engaged to be married! How do you think you will concieve? Shouldn't Mary have figured, when the angel said she would concieve and bear a child, that this meant when she was married (presumably in the very near future) she would concieve and bear Joseph's child, the coming Messiah? So, why would she have asked how she would concieve? The only reason I can think of is if she had vowed herself to God as a virgin. Why, then, was she marrying Joseph? I don't have all the answers, but one possible thought is that it was dangerous, what with the Roman soldiers about, for a woman to be single. But then, this whole thought is just something I've come upon, it's not like I'm know anything for sure here.
Have you ever heard of the Protoevangelium of James?
"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
"And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’" (ibid., 8–9).
"And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’" (ibid., 15).
"And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" (ibid.).
(Quoted from Catholic Answers, Mary: Ever Virgin.)
It has always been part of Catholic tradition (little "t", not an official Church teaching) that Joseph was an elderly widower with other children, and Joseph married Mary to protect and provide for her. On her part, she was to keep his house and take care of his children. Again, this is not part of Church doctrine or teaching, and the Protoevangelium of James is not inspired scripture, but it is one of the earliest writings of the Christian era and tells a possible story of Mary's childhood.
Such books, while not part of scripture, have always been valued by the Church. With your interest in history, you should have a ball discovering all that the Catholic Church has to offer.
(You can read the entire Protoevangelium of James, which dates back to approximately 120 A.D., at New Advent. You'll find it highly enlightening.)
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 11:56 pm |
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Racaela,
It was difficult for me to grasp the idea of Mary, the Ever Virgin, as well. Then, as if scales fell from my eyes, while meditating on the Incarnation, it occured to me that if the Holy Spirit was the Spouse of Mary, (which I had already accepted as a true Catholic belief) then how could Mary ever pledge herself in marriage to another man? She was forever bound to the Holy Spirit through the Incarnation.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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