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ecassidy
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| First Name: | Gene | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical Protestant to evangelical Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 12:52 pm |
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Hi all,
Can I get some help on this passage, please?
James 5:13-16
“Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.”
The verse about calling the elders (presbyters) for prayer and anointing with oil, and the promise of forgiveness of sin, is very sacramental. But then it is followed by a verse that evangelical Protestants use as a proof-text for NOT having to go to a priest.
Any thoughts?
Peace,
Gene
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Juan
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 05:31 pm |
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The verse about calling the elders (presbyters) for prayer and anointing with oil, and the promise of forgiveness of sin, is very sacramental. But then it is followed by a verse that evangelical Protestants use as a proof-text for NOT having to go to a priest.
Any thoughts?
I've always used this as a prooftext for both Extreme Unction and confession in the presence of a priest (not necessarily to a priest).
1481 The Byzantine Liturgy recognizes several formulas of absolution, in the form of invocation, which admirably express the mystery of forgiveness: "May the same God, who through the Prophet Nathan forgave David when he confessed his sins, who forgave Peter when he wept bitterly, the prostitute when she washed his feet with her tears, the publican, and the prodigal son, through me, a sinner, forgive you both in this life and in the next and enable you to appear before his awe-inspiring tribunal without condemnation, he who is blessed for ever and ever. Amen."
1482 The sacrament of Penance can also take place in the framework of a communal celebration in which we prepare ourselves together for confession and give thanks together for the forgiveness received. Here, the personal confession of sins and individual absolution are inserted into a liturgy of the word of God with readings and a homily, an examination of conscience conducted in common, a communal request for forgiveness, the Our Father and a thanksgiving in common. This communal celebration expresses more clearly the ecclesial character of penance. However, regardless of its manner of celebration the sacrament of Penance is always, by its very nature, a liturgical action, and therefore an ecclesial and public action.91
1483 In case of grave necessity recourse may be had to a communal celebration of reconciliation with general confession and general absolution. Grave necessity of this sort can arise when there is imminent danger of death without sufficient time for the priest or priests to hear each penitent's confession. Grave necessity can also exist when, given the number of penitents, there are not enough confessors to hear individual confessions properly in a reasonable time, so that the penitents through no fault of their own would be deprived of sacramental grace or Holy Communion for a long time. In this case, for the absolution to be valid the faithful must have the intention of individually confessing their grave sins in the time required.92 The diocesan bishop is the judge of whether or not the conditions required for general absolution exist.93 A large gathering of the faithful on the occasion of major feasts or pilgrimages does not constitute a case of grave necessity.94
1484 "Individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession."95 There are profound reasons for this. Christ is at work in each of the sacraments. He personally addresses every sinner: "My son, your sins are forgiven."96 He is the physician tending each one of the sick who need him to cure them.97 He raises them up and reintegrates them into fraternal communion. Personal confession is thus the form most expressive of reconciliation with God and with the Church.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1483
But then it is followed by a verse that evangelical Protestants use as a proof-text for NOT having to go to a priest.
They do? Which verse is that?
I've used it quite often as a proof text for the necessity of a priest (i.e. elder).
Sincerely,
Juan
Last edited on Wed Apr 25th, 2007 05:34 pm by Juan
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ecassidy
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| First Name: | Gene | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic to evangelical Protestant to evangelical Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 05:40 pm |
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Hi Juan,
Thanks for the CCC quotes!
I've often heard "confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed" used as a proof-text that a ministerial priest is not necessary for the forgiveness of sin. Since we are all priests...the Protestant doctrine of the priesthood of all believers (what we call the universal priesthood)...then we can confess to one another.
It just struck me today when I read this passage how a very sacramental passage is followed by one that says confess to one another.
Thanks for your input,
Gene
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 02:55 pm |
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Hello ecassidy,
I think the Catholic view of both/and would apply here, not either/or. In other words, I do think it is important that we confess our sins to each other in the Church as well as individually to a priest. As Juan pointed out from the Catholic Catechism, the body of believers confess communally before taking Communion, but that does not negate having to confess to a priest personally. I would direct a Protestant to the passage in John 20:21-23, where our Lord Jesus gives His apostles the awesome task of "forgiving the sins of any, and retaining the sins of any." Protestants steer clear of this verse or say that it no longer applies, since it was applicable only for the age of the Apostles.
Also, think about this. In the Lord's prayer, Jesus instructed each one of us to pray that our Lord "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This verse shows that each of us in the Kingdom of God have the responsibility to forgive those that offend us or transgress against us. And then there is the passage in which Christ says, "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14 & 15. Here again this passage shows our responsibility in forgiving others of their sins/trespasses.
But I think you are probably addressing the issue of priests having the authority to absolve others of their sins, which is a unique sacrament that applies only to ministerial priests and not the universal priesthood of believers. I think it is advantageous when addressing Protestants on this issue to take the and/both approach so that they don't think that Catholics do not ask for forgiveness from Christ on a daily basis apart from a priest. Catholics, to my understanding, believe that they receive forgiveness from God directly and also from the priest in confession when the priest stands inpersona Christi (sp?) that is, in the person of Christ. Both are means of grace that offer forgiveness from the truly penetant heart.
Now, I hope I helped you out here. If in anything I was wrong, I would appreciate some correction and direction.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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ecassidy
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 04:27 pm |
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Hi Darlene,
Thanks for those quotes and insights from the Gospels! I do a bit of apologetic work, on other Protestant sites, and within my family, and my wife's Protestant family. It's not easy!
As I think on it a bit further, the Church teaches us that this passage deals with the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick, and not the sacrament of Reconciliation directly, although we do receive the forgiveness of sins through the Anointing.
You are certainly right about the Either/Or situation. I bring that up sometimes in different types of discussions.
I think the passage in James is a good example of Both/And. We can receive healing when we confess our sins to one another. We can pray for each other. We can bear each other's burdens. We can help and counsel one another when we need it. And when does something like this happen? When we meet together in small groups, or small "communities of faith," as Pope Benedict has referred to them. We Catholics need to gather in these small groups during the week (or whenever is feasible). I am meeting with some friends from another parish tonight where we will meditate on, and discuss, the upcoming Sunday Scripture readings.
Thanks again.
Peace,
Gene
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lia
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 09:03 pm |
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Ecassidy,
Here's what my bible footnote says...I hope it helps. (Christian Community Bible, Catholic Pastoral Edition, 27th Edition)
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We know, through James' words, that the Church continued -- and must continue today -- Christ's ministry to the sick. Salvation includes both physical and spiritual health. The Gospel shows us that the latter is the most important and God alwyas grants it, although he does not always restore physical health.
In the Gospel, Jesus lays his hands on the sick and when he sends his missionaries, he asks them to lay their hands on the sick or to anoint them with oil (Mk 6:13 and 16:18). The laying on of hands is like communicating to another person the power which will heal him, in the name of Christ and with his authority. As to oil, it was used in those days as a remedy. The two signs -- anointing and laying of hands -- accompany prayer.
The elders are those in charge of Christian communities. They were lay people but had been charged with the direction of the community, the celebration of baptism, presiding at the eucharist. They must visit the sick and animate the community prayer for them, requesting God to cure them. At the same time they must invite the sick to recognize their sins, and prepare them to receive the grace of God.
When the Church speaks of sacrament of the sick, it refers to the anointing with oil done by someone who has officially received the power for this sacrament (up to now, only priests can administer this sacrament). This in no way excludes leaders of the Christian communities from praying, from anointing, and laying hands on the sick. When they do this with faith in the name of the Church, there is an increase in God's intervention in healing the sick, thus preparing them for conversion.
James 5:16-19.....It is the task of pastors of the Church to decide on the reconciliation of sinners with the community -- and with God. Yet, in many cases, we have more need for the forgiveness of one or several persons whom we have offended, and we must ask for it with simplicity: the forgiveness of a brother or sister in the faith will be the forgiveness of God.
Likewise, it is good to confess our faults to those who are able to understand us. The trust of the one and the mercy of the other: nothing more is needed for God to be in the middle.
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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ecassidy
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 04:25 pm |
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Hi Lia,
You said: “Here's what my bible footnote says...I hope it helps. (Christian Community Bible, Catholic Pastoral Edition, 27th Edition)”
Here is one of the footnotes:
“The elders are those in charge of Christian communities. They were lay people but had been charged with the direction of the community, the celebration of baptism, presiding at the eucharist.”
ME: I would have to disagree with this statement. The Greek word that is translated elder is presbuteros. It is from this word that we get our English word priest. The elders, or presbyters, were priests, not lay people.
Thanks for the comments, though.
Peace,
Gene
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