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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 01:16 pm |
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What exactly is the "it" that Jesus is refering to. I heard a neat teaching and I wanted to see if it is okay to accept it. Basically, it was saying that Jesus never finished the passover meal with his disciples and left before the last cup. This is the cup he was prayerfully asking God if there was another way to not drink. Then on the cross he asks for wine at a specific time and drinks it. It is finished means the pssover is finished. The true passover. The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world has been sacrificed. That what is finished is what began at the last supper, and Jesus indeed has been both priest and victim. The true passover meal is now offered once for all.
Is this a safe interpretation, or is there a more traditional view to what he is referringto, or can it bo both?
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 01:56 pm |
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brian wrote: can it bo both?
I have heard many interpretations. It could be referring to the sacrifice on the cross, to his earthly life, to the Passion, to the ordeal of this mother, etc. All can certainly be correct.
We have a similar statement when Jesus says, "Do this in memory of me." What is this referring to? Is it the simple act of consecrating the bread and wine? Or is there a larger context? Is he referring to his life of service to those in need? Of preaching the Good News? Of faithfulness to God's call? Or his upcoming sacrifice on the cross? Or did he mean it all?
We certainly can consider it inclusive of all of the above. There does not need to be a single meaning.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 03:45 pm |
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Brian, without detracting from the interpretations you and Rick have discussed, I would like to add another possibility. Looking back to the older translations, “It is consummated” and “It is accomplished,” it has always been my understanding that Jesus was referring to his accomplishment of the Father’s will.
David
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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 3rd, 2007 02:37 am |
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| Well anyway the teaching I was relaying was from Scott HAhn. I think he may have even referred to the fourth cup of the pasover as the cup of consummation. Or is it the cup of wrath. I forgtet. Still I like all these interpretations. But I do think this: that him drinking the wine on the cross after being in the garden asking the cup to pass, seems to make sense to me. It was the final cup of the passover that the disciples did not finish. I guess they went out singing a hymn and stopped the celebration which after the hymn is usually when hthe passover moves on to the fourth cup.
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
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| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 12:37 am |
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Yes, wouldn't "it" to mean that Jesus has done the Father's will? He has suffered and died (had paid man's debt only He, Jesus, as true man and true God can do). And of course proclaimed God's love and mercy.
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 01:07 am |
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Brian, I'd agree with David - The primary interpretation to "It" is the Father's Will, the mission of Jesus.
Also His suffering, announcing His own death, the end of 'eternal death', the consummation of His sacrifice, the fulfillment of the promise of the Old Testament, the defeat of the hold of original sin...the interpretations are endless.
There are many possible secondary interpretations, representations, and plain ole' conjecture, some of which Scott describes. I don't need to remind you that a single Scripture occurrence is full of different levels of significance.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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TT17Claret
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| Joined: | Fri Aug 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Summerville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Tony T | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 05:35 pm |
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Brian, not to take anything away from all the "meanings" discussed already, I tend to agree with Scott Hahn about the fourth cup. Several parishes around the country hold a Seder meal during Lent and if you have never attended one I'd highly recommend them. It puts the whole Passover in a different perspective.
Tony T.
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Do NOT be discouraged, even Moses started out as a basket case.
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 05:59 pm |
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My husband is a Jewish Christian and we used to celebrate a Messianic Passover in our home ever year for some years. We would invite over other Christians and they were always amazed at how much of Jesus there is in the Passover. Yes, the 4th cup has a couple of different names, including "The Cup of Completion." Rather prophetic, no matter what "it" means.
And the 3rd cup is the cup of blessing, the one over which Jesus said the Words of Consecration. So when Paul in 1 Cor 10:16 speaks of the cup of blessing, he is referring to that 3rd cup. (In some versions, it is called "the cup of thanksgiving.")
There is SO much there. Indeed, if you can go to a full seder at a Christian church and participate, you will be immensely blessed and leave there saying, "How can they not see Jesus in this???"
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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