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Traveler
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| Joined: | Fri Jun 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | Prairie Du Chien, Wisconsin USA |
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| First Name: | Jean | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | North American Baptist, Evangelical Free |
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 08:12 pm |
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Hi, I am an evangelical protestant that found this web site several months ago. How I got here is a story for another time, but I have found it an invaluable source of information. I realized just how many misunderstanding I had about the Catholic church. It is interesting that the things I always associated with the Catholic church that I thought were the most unbiblical, Mary, saints and confession, made perfect sense after reading this site and other sources.
However I do have a problem understanding one teaching (please correct me if I am wrong about the Catholic view on this). That is the topic of creation. I have read some things and heard a guest on the Journey Home program say that one of the things that brought him to the Catholic church was that a protestant church taught a literal 6 day creation and the Catholic church said that creation, along with other old testament stories, are just allegories. That the 6 day creation cannot be accepted as literal because it is unscientific. Come on now - our Christian faith is based on a virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, a belief in blood redeeming from sin, invisible places called heaven and hell and for Catholic the real presence in the Eucharist. Pretty unscientific stuff. If most Christians believe all that literally, why does the Catholic church reject creation just because it cannot be proven?
I have a problem with saying this part of the Bible is literal, stake your eternal life on it, while this you can take or leave. I was raised to believe the Bible and one of the things that draws me back to this site is that Catholic teaching explains some of the verses I could never understand as a protestant. (The wedding in Cana story made so much more sense when I begin to view Mary as an intercessor.). Is there some Biblical basic for disregarding certain parts of the old testament? Is all the old testament considered stories or just amazing ones - creation, Noah, Jonah, etc. I always read those parts of the Bible and realized just how amazing and beyond my understanding God is. I would hate to reduce God to only what man can prove scientifically.
I hope I am not coming across as rude. Most everything I read on this site makes sense. Just can't wrap my head around this one. I suppose one of the answers is tradition and church teaching, but I would appreciate any other insight you may have.
Thanks for letting me ramble on.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 09:44 pm |
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Traveler wrote: Hi, I am an evangelical protestant that found this web site several months ago.
Answers to your questions will be forthcoming, but first let me welcome you to the Coming Home Network and to the Catholic faith. All your questions are welcome, as long as they are sincerely asked. Our mission is to increase knowledge of the Catholic faith, and to assist you on your faith journey wherever that might lead.
Please feel free to ask any sincere questions you may have, and we will do our best to answer them honestly. We are happy to have you here with us.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 10:00 pm |
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Traveler wrote: However I do have a problem understanding one teaching (please correct me if I am wrong about the Catholic view on this). That is the topic of creation. I have read some things and heard a guest on the Journey Home program say that one of the things that brought him to the Catholic church was that a protestant church taught a literal 6 day creation and the Catholic church said that creation, along with other old testament stories, are just allegories.
Actually, the Catholic Church does not teach that the creation stories are allegories. The teaching of the Church is that we do not know how creation took place, except to say that we know God created the heavens and the earth.
Catholics believe that scripture is the Word of God. It is without error. However, we also believe that it contains various literary forms including poetry, history, and fiction. It conveys perfectly the message God wanted to convey through the human authors, who were true authors in every sense, but we as humans do not always perfectly understand the message God and the human authors intended to convey.
Science is also part of God's revelation. Where science and scripture disagree, we must seek a clearer understanding. God is not a God of deception, so the record of scripture and science are not deliberately obscured. We must strive for a greater understanding in order to reconcile the revelations of God.
Science tells us that the earth was created over millions, perhaps billions, of years. Creationists tell us that the earth was created over six days some six thousand years ago. How can we reconcile the two?
The Catholic Church tells us that God created the heavens and the earth from nothing, and that humanity descended from a single human pair created "in the image and likeness of God". The rest is just details. The fact is that no one was there to record the details, so we truly don't know how they happened. Once we accept the essential truths, we may believe whatever details we choose to believe.
Could God have literally created the universe as described in Genesis? Certainly. However, the scientific record (which is also part of God's revelation) tells us God did not create in that manner. That means our understanding is incomplete.
The basic difference between Protestant and Catholic teaching is the difference between "either/or" and "both/and". Protestants tend to believe that either evolution or creation must be correct. Catholics believe that both creation and evolution may be correct, but that God directed creation regardless of how it took place. As Catholics, we are free to accept either method as long as we accept that God directed every step of the process.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 10:18 pm |
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There is reputable evidence that the earth is not billions of years old. It's all in the interpretation of the data and which data one chooses to look at and consider - - - or ignore.
I, too, find this to be the most difficult to accept. Though the Church seems to not demand billions of years, there are certainly some Catholics who have the attitude that one who believes in a young earth is not quite on top of things.
An Adam and Eve that were not specially created seems to mess up the whole of the sin and death teaching for me.
I guess the bottom line here is "to each his own." It's the only way I can deal with this.
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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I know one thing the bible says is that the earth rests on pillars, but we know that's not true, and yet, it doesn't affect our belief in the bible.
Obviously, that is minimal compared to the bigger question you are asking, but it shows that those who wrote the bible, wrote from their own point of understanding. god is in there, but He didn't give dictation that was written word for word. Otherwise, we would have just had all our revelation all at once.
We still feel, as Christians, that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, but even that is usually not concrete, crystalized words, but more feelings and intuitions, and even epiphanies that we can't even explain.
For the record- I believe all the big bang theory could be true, and I believe species evolve within their own species, but I don't think species change into other species, and while much of our DNA might be compatible with apes, I think we are two very different species. After all, much of our DNA is compatible with many species. I believe God is great and could do whatever He wants however He wants.
God bless! Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 02:15 pm |
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From Job 9
2"Truly I know that it is so:
But how can a man be in the right before God?
3If one wished to contend with him,
one could not answer him once in a thousand times.
4He is wise in heart and mighty in strength--who has hardened himself against him, and succeeded?--
5he who removes mountains, and they know it not,
when he overturns them in his anger,
6who shakes the earth out of its place,
and its pillars tremble;
7who commands the sun, and it does not rise;
who seals up the stars;
8who alone stretched out the heavens
and trampled the waves of the sea;
9who made the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the chambers of the south;
10who does great things beyond searching out,
and marvelous things beyond number.
11Behold, he passes by me, and I see him not;
he moves on, but I do not perceive him.
12Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back?
Who will say to him, 'What are you doing?'
For me, this is a God who can create man out of the dust of the earth, no problema!
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Traveler
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| Joined: | Fri Jun 8th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Jean | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | North American Baptist, Evangelical Free |
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 06:04 pm |
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Thanks for all the replies. I guess there is no simple answer.
Six day creation - appears to conflict with our current understanding of science. Simple evolution - says we are just a different form of an animal which conflicts with the Christian belief that we were made in the image of God. The view that the environment and animals developed through evolution but the creation of man was a unique event is a new to me. I will have to think about that one.
Of course throughout the years many scientific 'truths' have been de-bunked. It would be interesting to see what happens over the next 50 - 100 years. I have a theory (based on no religious or scientific facts) that as scientists learn more and more about cells, stems cells, DNA, etc they will come to a point of seeing that we were in fact 'fearfully and wonderfully made". Perhaps they will find scientific proof that humans are distinct from animals. Wouldn't that be interesting.
Thanks again for the input. Now that I have a log-on, I can think of several more questions I need to ask - in the appropriate forum.
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Truthseeker
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| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 08:29 pm |
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By the way-
I just wanted to remind you that with God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. Maybe the actual "day" is not a unit of time so much as a unit of "step in the process".
Good luck in your pondering. Some things, we just have to acknowledge that we won't know until we know  .
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 06:05 am |
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| The word yom is a literal day in hebrew.
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Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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Truthseeker
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| Posts: | 349 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 06:14 am |
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I don't know Hebrew, but I'll take you at your word. I used to watch the Creation network and believed everything that was said on that program. I realize that I am believing what the RCC says, because I want to and so don't fighy it (like I used to, believe me). I am not an advoctae for or against either view. I really just believe God could have done it either way, and know matter who believes what about how, no one will ever convince me that it was by anyone other than the Lord, God. I know you do, too.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 07:06 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Creationists tell us that the earth was created over six days some six thousand years ago.
At the risk of being picky, the way I understand what is presented on the Creation Network, some creationists believe in 6,000 year but quite a few others believe that, if we account for the gaps in Usher's Chronology, creation took closer to 10,000 years rather than 6,000.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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wvnlyjstbgn
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Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 10:13 pm |
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If science and the Word of God are contradicting eachother,who wins? If science wins then thats where our faith is. If the Word wins then thats where our faith is. I know that I could never grasp evovlution. But boy when I put my faith in God by His grace my eyes were open to the truth that He is. I guess sometimes we, even churches, pick where we want to please the majority. And right now the majority is with evolution. But im with Gods creation. I believe in the big bang theory.
God spoke............BANG...............it happened
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Being confident of this very thing that He which began a good work in you will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 10:44 pm |
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wvnlyjstbgn wrote: If science and the Word of God are contradicting eachother,who wins?
Science and scripture are both revelations of God, so they cannot contradict each other. If they appear to contradict, it is because our understanding is limited.
From the Catechism:
159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."
Check the link above for source references.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BodRod
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Posted: Sat Jul 21st, 2007 10:51 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
Science and scripture are both revelations of God, so they cannot contradict each other. If they appear to contradict, it is because our understanding is limited.
Limited ??? How about just plain and simple wrong because we do not wish to consider all the facts of the situation OR we don't know enough about it yet and therefore should not be taking a position until we know more.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 02:05 am |
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Traveler wrote: Hi, I am an evangelical protestant that found this web site several months ago. How I got here is a story for another time, but I have found it an invaluable source of information. I realized just how many misunderstanding I had about the Catholic church. It is interesting that the things I always associated with the Catholic church that I thought were the most unbiblical, Mary, saints and confession, made perfect sense after reading this site and other sources.
However I do have a problem understanding one teaching (please correct me if I am wrong about the Catholic view on this). That is the topic of creation. I have read some things and heard a guest on the Journey Home program say that one of the things that brought him to the Catholic church was that a protestant church taught a literal 6 day creation and the Catholic church said that creation, along with other old testament stories, are just allegories. That the 6 day creation cannot be accepted as literal because it is unscientific. Come on now - our Christian faith is based on a virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, a belief in blood redeeming from sin, invisible places called heaven and hell and for Catholic the real presence in the Eucharist. Pretty unscientific stuff. If most Christians believe all that literally, why does the Catholic church reject creation just because it cannot be proven?
I have a problem with saying this part of the Bible is literal, stake your eternal life on it, while this you can take or leave. I was raised to believe the Bible and one of the things that draws me back to this site is that Catholic teaching explains some of the verses I could never understand as a protestant. (The wedding in Cana story made so much more sense when I begin to view Mary as an intercessor.). Is there some Biblical basic for disregarding certain parts of the old testament? Is all the old testament considered stories or just amazing ones - creation, Noah, Jonah, etc. I always read those parts of the Bible and realized just how amazing and beyond my understanding God is. I would hate to reduce God to only what man can prove scientifically.
I hope I am not coming across as rude. Most everything I read on this site makes sense. Just can't wrap my head around this one. I suppose one of the answers is tradition and church teaching, but I would appreciate any other insight you may have.
Thanks for letting me ramble on.
Jean
I first wanted to say, Welcome to the CHNetwork! We're very happy to have you here with us and I'm hoping that since you seem to of spent time as an observer that you will feel comfortable to partake in our discussions now.
My own understanding is that Scripture is not intended to be a Science text. I think if we use it in this manner we are going to be completely defeated within the first two chapters of Genesis, as we will find that there are two different creation accounts. Trying to understand scripture in a literalist context will cause a great deal of confusion and make it appear that God contradicts himself right off that bat.
If we read these accounts in a literal manner and try our best to discover what God had intended us to understand from the authors oringinal context, then we can see that we are supposed to believe that God created all things. The earth, light, darkness, plants, animals, water, and last and most especially Humans with a imortal soul. I think that him choosing to show us two different accounts within the first two chapters is that the time & order of his creation really is not that pertinent to creations account. I have personally contemplated that possibly the significance of the 6 day creation account and Gods comandment to rest on the seventh is exactly for us here on earth living in time in space to understand how often he wants us to worship, and that was more of his purpose than whether he actually created everything in six days or not. I personally choose by faith that God did create everything in 6 days and that all things are possible with God the Almighty Father, but that is my own preferance. I don't judge others nor am I affended at those who have chosen to take more of a scientific look at these accounts, I do think that those who try to explain and insist on understanding things of God with a scientifc eye are going to be very disappointed & disallutioned, but that is their choice to seek to understand in this context. I also believe that every scientifc discovery has been revealed as God has chosen to allow us to understand and not by anything or anyone, great mans intelligents.
I had a couple of links that I thought you or maybe others may enjoy taking a look at, It includes the beliefs of some of the Early Church Fathers and a few popes. http://www.scripturecatholic.com/evolution.html#scripture-III http://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html
I also wanted to say that I did not feel your question was rude, I actually felt that it was a good question and one that I've not personally addressed or tried to contribute too. I guess I also wanted you to know that there are still some of us catholics that choose by faith to except Gods account with the understanding that I don't need to personally understand on a scientific level. God Said it, I except it.
God Bless, I hope to see you included in more discussions. Welcome Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 02:31 am |
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| I agree with you Betty. There are some things we just are never going to know for sure until we are in heaven and everything will be revealed. It is interesting to think about but I wouldn't get hung up over it because it is a mystery that we have to have faith and know that God took care of it all in the time He saw fit, whether it was six days or 6 billion years. I was in a museum of natural history with the grandkids a few months ago, and there was a rock that was "millions" of years old, supposedly. Everyone was encouraged to "touch history by touching the rock!" Well we all did, but I was thinking, how can we know any of this for sure? Like Rick said, the world is God's creation, whether it took six days as we know days, or some other measurement of time that has not yet been revealed to us.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 05:07 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: supposedly. Everyone was encouraged to "touch history by touching the rock!"
Marsha
It's funny you mention the piece of history in the Rock. Yesterday I had stopped up at the church to pray and father was hearing confessions. There was a young gentleman out front setting up his tables with all kinds of religious artwork, Rosaries, etc. I walked over to the table and to ask him a few questions about his stuff. This young man was here from Jerusalem. He shared that he was born in Bethlaham and has this buisness that he travels around and sell statues, rosaries, etc. Made from Olive wood in Jerusalem. I bought a rosary made of Jerusalem olive wood and it has a small bit of Holy water from the Jordan River attached to the Rosary. I was showing my son this morning and telling him that when I used it to pray last night, It felt as I was holding and important peice of history in my hands. It's just beautiful!
That's my kind of history
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 05:25 pm |
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Hi Betty,
We have a display here, like you mentioned, after Mass every 2 or 3 months. It is run by a small family. They have some very nice items. Some of the carvings are excellent with good color and very fine detail work. Next time the are here I will be looking for a crucifix for this room. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 05:29 pm |
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| I bought a small Holy Family statue from them- it is beautiful and the first hting that I see when I wake up in the morning
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Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 05:49 pm |
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| Betty, I know what you mean. Water from the river where Jesus was baptized . . . it does make us closer somehow.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 06:46 pm |
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BodRod wrote: Hi Betty,
We have a display here, like you mentioned, after Mass every 2 or 3 months. It is run by a small family. They have some very nice items. Some of the carvings are excellent with good color and very fine detail work. Next time the are here I will be looking for a crucifix for this room.
I nearly spent my money on a couple of magnificent crusifixes, but I already have a crusifix in every room in my home, so I thought I should get the two Rosaries instead.
I bought a small Holy Family statue from them- it is beautiful and the first hting that I see when I wake up in the morning
If I would have had the $$ I'd of bought the holy family statue or the Blessed Mother. They were just beautiful. Carving was intricate and smooth. Really nice.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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beachmoss
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 02:59 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Betty, I know what you mean. Water from the river where Jesus was baptized . . . it does make us closer somehow.
From what I understand all of the water on earth is constantly recycled so that any drop of water that falls on you as rain, you drink, or you flush down the toilet could have been a drop from the Jordan when Jesus was baptised. Sorry if that sounds crude, I certainly didn't mean it that way, but just think-- we get Jesus' body and blood at ever mass. How much closer can we get?
Beth
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beachmoss
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| First Name: | Beth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic (raised Baptist) |
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 03:17 am |
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Now to the topic at hand--creation
Personally, I believe in a literal six-day creation. Why not? God can do anything!
Even though I have a great love of geology, archaeology, anthropology, and astronomy (not professionally, just a deep interest in these sciences) I still am not convinced the earth or the universe is billions of years old. I haven't seen enough pure scientific proof to believe it. If you are sitting on a jury and science had to prove beyond | | |
