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prairie
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| First Name: | prairie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Church of Christ, CREC, Catholic (RCIA) |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 11:38 am |
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Is there a good refutation of this article anywhere?
h**p://www.christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html
(I wasn't sure where to put this question. Sorry if it's in the wrong place.)
TIA!
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BodRod
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 01:00 pm |
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Why would you want to?
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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prairie
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| First Name: | prairie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Church of Christ, CREC, Catholic (RCIA) |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 01:48 pm |
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Because my husband, whom I love very much and with whom my life is inextricably intertwined and who does not want me to convert, believes it and I'm not able, at least at this point, to refute it adequately. I did say that just because some apologists take some quotes out of context and make them say something they do not say, does not necessarily mean the fathers did not hold to a papist view. I also said that many of the ideas presented as mutually exclusive with a papist view are not. But he just disagrees - he thinks the ideas ARE mutually exclusive. I've done some searching for answers to this article and the only thing I found was a referrence to it in the archives of letters to the editor at Catholic Answers. I need to arm myself for this one and I'm hoping someone has already been there and done it.
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BodRod
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 01:52 pm |
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| OK. I underrstand now. Thanks.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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prairie
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| First Name: | prairie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Church of Christ, CREC, Catholic (RCIA) |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 02:06 pm |
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And hey! If this one is really obvious to someone more grounded in the Catholic faith than I am, please tell me why. I find that the longer I believe the Catholic church is what she claims to be, the clearer all this stuff becomes. If this one's not really that hard, but I just don't get it yet, please 'splain it to me.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 04:22 pm |
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Prairie, I took a look at your link and followed up on the address given on the home page. It claims to be sponsored by a Reformed Baptist congregation, which group is one of the most anti-Catholic on the planet. The address itself, according to Google, has the appearance of a private residence, so likely it is either the parsonage (with the church building located elsewhere) or a “house church.”
As to the various Fathers of the Church listed, the citations given are rather loose and trail off into the tract writer’s own interpretation. There is ’way too much material there for anyone to do more than skim and read a few paragraphs at random, but what I see at a glance is a lot of a priori presumption built into every argument which would not be accepted by most Protestants, let alone Orthodox or Catholics. In other words, I agree with your initial reply to your husband.
Unfortunately, these underlying assumptions are deeply ingrained in Reformed thought, and the typical Reformed Baptist believer will not even advert to them. What will typically be claimed is exactly what you see on that website: Everything is laid out in logical sequence, so it must be true. In other words, sure, IF the assumptions are true, THEN the arguments prove them. But this is circular reasoning.
David
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 04:40 pm |
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| I took a brief look at some of the text and I did not see any references to the original language which, as I understand it, was Aramaic. Also, it seemed to me that there was a preponderance of mis-leading uses of pronouns. If you would like a more up-front presentation on this topic I would suggest the book, "Jesus, Peter & The Keys". I found this book very informative and helpful as I made my Journey to the Church.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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BettyBoopToo
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 05:41 pm |
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prairie wrote: Is there a good refutation of this article anywhere?
h**p://www.christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html
(I wasn't sure where to put this question. Sorry if it's in the wrong place.)
TIA!
Prairie
Hello, I didn't read the entire article, but I thought maybe this link may give you some information about the primacy of Peter.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html
At the first part of the article it show the scripture used and also explains the reasoning, then as you scroll down you can see numerous documents by the ECF's for reference also.
As a wife too, I think I can understand why you want to gather your thoughts before you speak with your husband about this. I try to gather all my information & thoughts before I get into any big conversation with a non-catholic too.
I hope any of this helps
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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BodRod
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 06:00 pm |
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That is a good site, Betty. Thank you. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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mrbill
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| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
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| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic- Baptist- Returned Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 07:24 pm |
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Hey prairie- I remembered this author's name, did a little searching, and found several good refutations to his "research". William Webster and apologist Steve Ray had a back and forth "discussion" about this subject. If you go to http://www.catholicconvert.com/Default.aspx?tabid=83 and look under the Books, Talks and DVD section, you can read the e-mails they traded back and forth. You can also find more here http://web.archive.org/web/20030210220337/http:/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ423.HTM
This article is a real jumble of quotes from scripture, Church Fathers, and personal opinion. He really presents a one- sided view on the writings of early Christians. Why does he start with the third century? Many of the individual sections don't even make sense. Hope this helps.
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 07:39 pm |
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BodRod wrote: That is a good site, Betty. Thank you.
Your very welcome Criff, I really have found his site excellent for study. He gave me permission to use it for learning, teaching, sharing as long as I make sure that others know that it's his site. I love how easy it is to find the scripture and ECF's refrences in a very simple and easy format.
Hey prairie- I remembered this author's name, did a little searching, and found several good refutations to his "research". William Webster and apologist Steve Ray had a back and forth "discussion" about this subject. If you go to http://www.catholicconvert.com/Default.aspx?tabid=83 and look under the Books, Talks and DVD section, you can read the e-mails they traded back and forth. You can also find more here http://web.archive.org/web/20030210220337/http:/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ423.HTM
This article is a real jumble of quotes from scripture, Church Fathers, and personal opinion. He really presents a one- sided view on the writings of early Christians. Why does he start with the third century? Many of the individual sections don't even make sense. Hope this helps.
Bill, I'm a big fan of Mr. Rays site as well and have enjoyed learning from his printed topics too. Since the article comes from a baptist source, and Mr. Ray is a former Baptist I think it's a good choice to use as a source for response.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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prairie
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 11:13 pm |
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Thank you all for these leads. I'll get a chance to look at them later. I did look up the subject at catholic answers and I'm running down some other more explicit quotes in context. This afternoon, I sent the entire chapters 3&4 from Book 3 of Irenaeus' Against Heresies. Whatever Irenaeus said about the rock, he was pretty clear about the primacy of the Roman church and the necessity of direct apostolic succession.
If you're so inclined, please pray for us.
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 11:27 pm |
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prairie wrote: Thank you all for these leads. I'll get a chance to look at them later. I did look up the subject at catholic answers and I'm running down some other more explicit quotes in context. This afternoon, I sent the entire chapters 3&4 from Book 3 of Irenaeus' Against Heresies. Whatever Irenaeus said about the rock, he was pretty clear about the primacy of the Roman church and the necessity of direct apostolic succession.
If you're so inclined, please pray for us.
Prairie
I'll certainly include you and your dear husband to my daily prayers for many of the couples here on the forum.
I find it can be very painful to disagree on these faith topics between spouses and have often asked "why Lord would you want me to bring this discontent and disageement into our marriage." I surrendar to his will and leave it in his hands, while asking him to give me the words that will help my husband and not further aggravate him.
Gods Blessing
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Juan
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Posted: Fri Jul 6th, 2007 01:47 am |
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Hi Prairie,
You seem to have received satisfactory responses, but if I may...
As far as I know, the Church has not defined that "Peter" in Matt 16:18 means the foundation of the Church. And even if She has, She has never to my knowledge forbidden a redefinition of a Scripture verse which does not contradict the official definition.
Protestants disapprove of the doctrine of Petrine Primacy. That is why they claim that Jesus did not name Simon "the Rock". But that is not what St. Augustine is saying. St. Augustine firmly substantiates the doctrine of Petrine Primacy while at the same time giving us another Catholic understanding of Peter's name. St. Augustine explains that Jesus named Peter, the Rock or Rocky because he represents the Church. But lets take that thought to its logical conclusion. Is the Church the body of Christ? Then Peter also represents Christ.
Anyway, let us go over St. Augustine's statement and note very carefully that, although he believes that Peter represents the Church, he by no means dilutes the authority of Peter's Primacy in the Church:
...Before his passion the Lord Jesus, as you know, chose those disciples of his, whom he called apostles. Among these it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given the privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, 'To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven' (Mt 16:19). After all, it isn't just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter's acknowledged pre-eminence, that he stood for the Church's universality and unity, when he was told, 'To you I am entrusting,' what has in fact been entrusted to all...
...the apostle Peter as representing the one and only Church. Peter, you see, is first in the class of the apostles,...
For not without cause among all the Apostles doth Peter sustain the person of this Church Catholic;
..And it was without seam, that its sewing might never be separated; and came into the possession of one man, because He gathereth all into one. Just as in the case of the apostles, who formed the exact number of twelve, in other words, were divisible into four parts of three each, when the question was put to all of them, Peter was the only one that answered, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;' and to whom it was said, 'I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' as if he alone received the power of binding and loosing: seeing, then, that one spake in behalf of all, and received the latter along with all, as if personifying the unity itself; therefore one stands for all, because there is unity in all.24
But what now? The Lord asketh him as ye heard when the Gospel was being read, and saith to him, Simon, son of John, lovest thou Me more than these? He answered and said, Yea, Lord, Thou knowest that I love Thee. And again the Lord asked this question, and a third time He asked it. And when he asserted in reply his love, He commended to him the flock. For each several time the Lord Jesus said to Peter, as he said, I love Thee: Feed My lambs, feed My little sheep. In this one Peter was figured the unity of all pastors, of good pastors, that is, who know that they feed Christ's sheep for Christ, not for themselves.43
Ambrose
this one, I say, when he heard: 'But who do you say I am,' immediately, not unmindful of his station, exercised his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor; the primacy of belief, not of rank...This, then, is Peter who has replied for the rest of the Apostles; rather, before the rest of men. And so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation.
He made answer: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock will I build My Church, and I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' Could He not then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on His own authority, He gave the kingdom, whom He called the Rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church?54
It is that same Peter to whom He said, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.' Therefore, where Peter is, there the Church is, there death is not, but life eternal. And therefore did He add, 'and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,' (or him). Blessed Peter, against whom 'the gates of hell prevailed not,' the gate of heaven closed not; but who, on the contrary, destroyed the porches of hell, and opened the heavenly vestibules; wherefore, though placed on earth, he opened heaven and closed hell.56
Ambrosiaster
For who dared to contradict Peter, the chief apostle to whom the Lord had given the keys of the kingdom of Heaven
Aphraates (He doesn't mention anything about Petrine Primacy but counters faith alone in this statement).
These then are the works of faith which is based on the true Stone which is Christ,
The Apostolical Constitutions
Luke 22:32: For on this account the devil himself is very angry at the holy Church of God: he is removed to you, and has raised against you adversities, seditions, and reproaches, schisms and heresies. For he had before subdued that people to himself, by their slaying of Christ. But you who have left his vanities, he tempts in different ways, as he did the blessed Job. For indeed he opposed that great high priest Joshua the son of Josedek; and he often times sought to sift us, that our faith might fail...He will say now, as He said formerly of us when we were assembled together, 'I have prayed that your faith may not fail.'68
In this explanation, the Church of God is embodied in Peter because Jesus said:
Luke 22:31
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
And the rest, along the same vein, substantiate the Church's Teaching of the Primacy of Peter.
I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Juan
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