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Kayla
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Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 02:26 am |
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Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
I think this may have been a reading from Mass a few days ago, or I ran across it in my own reading of the Sacred Scripture, but each time I read this verse, I get stumped. I do not understand what Paul is saying here. I do not understand what he means by "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions".
Any thoughts?
Kayla
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I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 09:41 am |
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Let’s start, Kayla, with this other passage from Romans 8:15–17:
When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
The whole of this chapter is one of the most beautiful and profound in the bible. It shows, I believe, some of the soul’s inner workings as it strives towards God, the delicate interplay of God and the soul as they reach out to each other. It exemplifies the lived reality of the theological virtues — faith, hope, love — which are celebrated more specifically and theologically in 1 Corinthians 13.
I have singled out here verse 17, however, to show that our glory in heaven is dependent on our suffering and travail here on earth. Christ had to die in order to enter into his glory, and so do we. We have to die to ourselves and to everything created in order to become children of God; vv. 1–15 explain this. Only then can be begin to yearn for God and to love him in the manner described in vv. 18–39.
Now let us gather in another thought: that of the Church as the mystical body of Christ and of us as members of that body. We find this exemplified in the same chapter of Colossians where we find the verse you ask about. Consider vv. 18–23, which lead into that verse. It speaks of the body of Christ, and of the identity of that body with Christ himself, not as a mere symbol, for we know that when we are in the state of grace, we have the divine indwelling (John 14:23) and become the temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:15a, 19). The tie-in to the passage from Romans comes in Colossians 1:27, where Paul mentions his vocation to make known to those called by God the “riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
So we have learned that in order to be saved, we must be configured to Christ on the cross as much as to Christ in his glory. We must suffer, just as he did, if we would attain heaven. We accept salvation not as mere receivers of blessings, but through an actual identification with our Savior: in a very real sense, we are he, he is us. For this reason we see Christ praying: “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me” (John 17:22–23).
To love is to suffer; Christ died out of love for us. We must, in our turn, die and rise with him. We must, as I said, be configured to him and accept his passion and death into our very being if we would also accept his resurrection and ascension into glory. For this “new creation” which we are in Christ is not something merely external, but literally who we are in him.
So what is “lacking in Christ’s afflictions”? Nothing, from the standpoint of the efficacy of his passion and resurrection for our salvation. But our own part, as the living “Christ in the world,” is to follow in his steps and become like him in all ways, including the acceptance of his own sufferings as they exist in us as members of his body.
David
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 10:41 am |
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Hello Kayla,
great question!!! For an explorer...
I was once tagged by a reformed baptist as a "Born again explorer, with catholic background and protestan leanings"
today however I like to think I am, "faithful to Catholic tradition, yet open to insights of contemporary scholarship."
My greatest strength in my search was to read everything and everyone, and then decide from there. Every garden has its secrets.A true Warrior of Light knows every garden has its own mysteries, which only the patient hand of the gardener can unravel.He knows that the fool who gives advice about some else’s garden is not tending his own plants.
From Jerome's biblical commentary,
Col 1:22-24, should not be thought to say that christ's work was somehow insufficient. the word thlipsis, which is never used of Christ's passion but is regularly used for hardships of those proclaiming the Gospel (Rom 5:3, 8:35; 2Cor 1:4,8; 4:17;6:4; 7;4), suggests that the inflictions are Pauls, not Christ's.. this verse reflects the belief that thoser who proclaim the Gospel would have to endure hardships and afflictions.
from "The Interpreters Bible,' exegesis, Vol 11, pg 178-9
He suffers for your sake..and for the sake of...the Church, in the sense that his sufferings have come on him in consequence of his apostolic labors. He cannot look upon them as disastrous, or even unfortunate since they are necesarry consequence of the high service in which he is engaged. More than that, by them he enters into a deeper fellowship with Christ. In the letter to the Phillipians he tells us that he has scrificed everything that was once dear to him, "that I may win Christ, ..that i may know him, and the power of His Resurerection, and the fellowship of His sufferings." (Phil 3:8-10). this ambition is now being realized - he 'is filling up the deficiencies of Christ's sufferings". His sufferings, like the sufferings of of Christ are vicarious; they are not punishmenyt for sin, but are endured in the interest of others. this are by no means implies that they are in any sense a satisfacttion for the sins of others. the thought is rather that the sufferu=ing belongs to the christian vocation; the servant is not greater than the Lord, and the hostile world will treat the christian as it treated Christ...the apostle now himself bears the cross; he4 drinks the cup Jesus drank, and is baptized with the baptism that He was baptized with (Matt 20:22-23).
the phrase "the defeciencies of Christ's afflictions" still requires explanation . the words do not imply that the sufferings of Christ were insufficient to accomplish their purpose of redemption; .., the underlying thought is that the afflictions of the Church are also "Christ's afflictions." He who persecutes the Church, persecutes HIM (cf. Acts (:4); the sum of His sufferings includes both what He suffered in the flesh, and what he continues to suffer in His 'Body,' the Church. Thus the sufferings if Christians as continually supplement the sufferings of their master; they "fill up the defeciencies" in now what becomes an experience common to Master and servants.
Gordon Lightfoot: "...the afflictions of every saint and martyr do supplement the afflictions of Christ.... these afflictions will never be fully suplemented, until the struggle of the Church with sin and unbelief is brought to a close."
God bless,
Johnnie o
Last edited on Wed Aug 1st, 2007 10:49 am by Johnnie o
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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ecassidy
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 05:53 pm |
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Hi Kayla,
This is one of the verses that the Holy Spirit used to bring me back to the Church after spending 30-plus years in the Protestant churches. I was studying at a Lutheran college and chose this verse to do a hermeneutical study. The professor wanted to know why I chose such a difficult verse.
It was "difficult" to him because it contradicted closely-held Lutheran beliefs.
Grace to you,
Gene C.
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 06:53 pm |
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This is one of the verses that the Holy Spirit used to bring me back to the Church after spending 30-plus years in the Protestant churches. I was studying at a Lutheran college and chose this verse to do a hermeneutical study. The professor wanted to know why I chose such a difficult verse.
It was "difficult" to him because it contradicted closely-held Lutheran beliefs.
Grace to you, Gene C.
Hi Gene,
I'm impressed, I wish I had had toe head to go to College to get a degree in theology. I have spent five yrs in a Evangelical Lutheran Church; I stell attend their Sunday Bible study, as often as I can.
How is this verse more dififcult for Lutheran's, and why would it contradict a belief? I've other religions totally ignoe Chapter and vss...because they could not expalin them, they would say we believe they were 'ADDed' in later... But this is a first for me, about Lutheranism.
Our St Peter's, B'dwin Parish has a phenomenal Bible study, we got a Lutheran Bible Scholar, as a participant, you may Have heard of him, Robert Hall, he does a twenty minute stint at the end of the 1953 Movie, 'Luther Movie, 50th anniversary DVD in 2002, I nearly fell off my chair, we've were going at it pretty good for yrs.
God bless,
johnnie O
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 09:27 pm |
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Johnnie o wrote: I'm impressed, I wish I had had toe head to go to College to get a degree in theology.
Never too late, Johnnie. I'm about the same age as you, and I got mine in 2006 from Loyola University in New Orleans.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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ecassidy
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Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2007 04:15 pm |
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Hi Johnnie,
I wasn’t exactly going for a degree in theology. It was the beginning of the DELTO program in the Missouri Synod. I had three courses left to take that would have qualified me to be a deacon, and then the next step would have been entering into the candidacy for ordination section, which was another 20 courses. (I finished seven.)
What this verse showed me was that salvation is not just personal; it is also corporate. It is not just a “me and Jesus” thing. It is a “me and the whole Body of Christ” thing. What I do affects everyone in the family of God. I can offer up my prayers, my good works, my sufferings, all for the benefit of everyone else united to Christ.
The second thing I learned, and am still learning, is that “believing in Jesus” is only the beginning. We have to let the Cross of Christ penetrate deep into our souls. We have to become like Christ. We have to…suffer! There are plenty of Scripture passages that declare this.
It is also amazing that justification by faith and suffering are tied together. (Read Romans 5:1-5, Romans 8:1-17, and Philippians 3:7-11.)
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Gene
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2007 06:03 pm |
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Hey Gene!
I gotta say. WOW!!!
that 's a testamony!
Not too many people can wow me in these on-line forums, that is a great thought, and your response has great insight.
Thank you! I used our responses here http://www.studylightforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=15938#15938
With your permission I wish to keep it on line.. The topic is catholic conversions, originally started by someone who was bashinng them.. it turned out to be an ongoing apologetic argument For the Church.
God bless,
Johnnie O
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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ecassidy
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Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2007 06:11 pm |
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Johnnie,
I am leaving work now so I probably won't be back online until Monday, when I will take a deeper look at the other link.
I see you are from West Hempstead. I live in Queens. My experience in Lutheranism was with St. John's in Glendale, and Our Savior in Rego Park. I was never a member, just an attender.
I was also a member of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan. Have you heard of them?
Peace,
Gene
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2007 12:50 am |
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Hey Gene,
My Dad lived on 109th aveand 117th st, I have family members went to Adams High.
The closest I got to Queens Lutheran Churchs,was a female deacon Invited me to some Christmas Eve ? All night Vigil in Jamaica.
as far as manhattan born and raised there, attended Catholic Churches,
I never joined St. Peters in b'dwin, they have a really deep spiritual community, I could have entered the diaconate though, I told them my heart lies with the catholuc Church.
I didn't make though, she now is a Deacon there.
God bless,
Johnnie o
Got any good bible studies near you? there is a good one in Bayside, Sunday, eve 6 pm at Sacred heart Church, in the rectory basement.
we do a men's grp Thurs eve 7:30 @ St Cathrines of Sienna, Franklin sq.
God bless,
Johnnie o
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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ecassidy
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Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2007 12:10 pm |
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Johnnie o,
Oh my, oh my, oh my!!!
I was at the Sacred Heart Bible study last night!! (Frank is showing the Scott Hahn video series on The Lamb's Supper.) My friend Steve and I have been attending on and off since last year. Have me met already?
Peace,
Gene
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 01:12 am |
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Hey gene,
its a small world out here,,, Tell Frank O' I said hello, I haven't been around there since last May.. I fot really Busy on Sunday, for the parish..
Monday- prayr grp. Tues- Bible study; thurs Rcia or men's bible study;
ythen there is first fri,sat and last friday -sat.. I barely have time to work!!!
Frank runs a good study... have you run into pasqual??? he doesn't believe in the literacy of the Bible.. we use to go at it pretty good...
God bless,
Johnnie o
let me know when you're going next, I'l try to make it
Last edited on Tue Aug 7th, 2007 09:39 am by Johnnie o
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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ecassidy
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 11:08 am |
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Johnnie,
Yes, small world, but this Internet is a big thing, ain't it?
Every parish should have a layperson like Frank in it! I sometimes wish I lived in Bayside near Sacred Heart. It's a great parish and a nice neighborhood in the Big Apple. There is also Jim and Ada, who remind me of Priscilla and Aquila in the book of Acts. They have a Divine Mercy meeting in their home. I wish Jim could be my surrogate father as my parents have been gone a long time now.
Yes, Pasquale and his wife have been attending. There is another gentleman who I think has a problem with what is declared in Scripture. But Frank has a way of putting forth the truth in love, doesn't he?
I will not be there this Sunday but probably the Sunday after.
Peace,
Gene
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 12:53 pm |
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Hello Gene,
You know Jim and Ada also? wow, I was working at a friends across the street from Sacred heart a couple of months... (you may know him also Frank B. He's working in Anguila, comes up 4 times a yr. also very good Friends with Frank O).
Yes, Franh o alwys has a beautiful way of approaching anything..
I was there with Jim and Ada, when they started the Wed. night divine mercy prayer grp. they are a great couple not to too mention Giants in the faith.
looking forward to meeting you soon.
God bless,
Johnnie O
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 09:24 pm |
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Sorry to go back to the original topic here, but I wanted to say something about that verse. I don't really have anything new to read, just that it came up in our family Bible reading (my very protestant parents and siblings and I kind of go through the Bible together on a schedule), and my dad was SO QUICK to point out that we can't, through what we do, contribute a thing to God's work on the cross. It was funny, I think he didn't understand the verse, as it seems to contradict his protestant preconceptions, and therefore was quick to sort of dismiss it. I think protestants do that with a lot of trouble passages.
Here is a similar one: James 5:19-20 -- My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins
This lists a person who brings back a lapse believer as "saving his sould from death" and states that his doing so "covers a multitude of sins." Now, from a Catholic view, this makes perfect sense. But for a protestant, it is extremely troublesome. Anyway, I found this interesting.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Aug 7th, 2007 10:44 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote:My dad was SO QUICK to point out that we can't, through what we do, contribute a thing to God's work on the cross. It was funny, I think he didn't understand the verse, as it seems to contradict his protestant preconceptions, and therefore was quick to sort of dismiss it. I think protestants do that with a lot of trouble passages.
So much for the bible as the only rule of faith. Working with Protestants as I do, I see this phenomenon frequently. When it happens, it’s clear they don’t realize that they are imposing a preconceived notion — typically the theological viewpoint of their particular faith community — on a text of scripture rather than, as they think they are doing, receiving their doctrine from scripture.
From a certain perspective, Catholics are in agreement with your father’s statement that Christ’s atonement is more than sufficient to forgive every sin that will ever be committed. The other side of the coin is that the application of that forgiveness requires our response in receiving it. Protestants see it as either/or (in this case, faith OR works, with Protestants opting for faith and Catholics opting for works); Catholics see it as both/and (grace AND faith AND works functioning together holistically to produce salvation).
DavidLast edited on Wed Aug 8th, 2007 09:47 am by David W. Emery
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Johnnie o
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 01:41 pm |
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Hello Racalla,
DAD, that we can't, through what we do, contribute a thing to God's work on the cross. It
When we accept suffering, don't grumble, people ask how we gret through it... and we say, 'Our faith' in Christ, we accept suffering.
Nobody suffered more than Christ, hunted to be killed as an infant, his Community tried to throw Him off a cliff..for His beginings alone.
At Calvary, people were converted, by Christ's acceptance of His suffering, and His frogiveness of those who were Crucifying Him.
Maybe we can't 'add' to His suffering, because he suffered all for us, but we do participate in His Suffering, In His Body the Church.
From Various sources I picked up over the years..
We are made with FIVE kinds of dust: five peoples- white, black, red, yellow, brown,and olive skinned
There are five types of wounds.
Christ suffered all five kinds of wounds known to medical science,
1) Contusions – blows by a rod.
2) Lacerations – scourging
3) Penetrating wounds- Crown of thorns
4) Perforating wounds – Nails
5) Incised wounds – the spear
The Hasidim, teach that there are five kinds of people in the world:
1) The Perfectly Evil person, who acts without remorse.
2) The Imperfectly Evil person who acts with remorse.
3) The Perfectly Good person, who acts without any sense of self and selfishness.
4) The Imperfectly Good-
5) And the Beinon: The in- betweener, who experiences life as a battle between selfishness and selflessness.
The Perfectly Evil and Good persons receive no punishment or reward for their actions, for they are incapable of doing anything other than what they do.
The Imperfectly Evil and Good persons can experience consequences for their actions, for that what they do is either evil or good, but knowing is fleeting as to be almost imperceptible.
It is the In-betweener, which truly wrestles with good and evil.
For this wrestling to be real the capacity to sin must also be real. Evil is not an allusion but a force from God that needs direction.
Evil is not to be eradicated, but channeled toward the good. Only the in-betweener can do this; for only the in-betweener knows Good and Evil as real force in life.
Rabbi Levi is revealing a great truth to the violent thief: it is because of his intimate knowledge of evil that he is capable of turning toward the good.
His sins need not be a ‘stumbling block’ to redemption, but a catalyst for it…
The same is true for you! Do you think that your misdeeds prevent you from choosing good over evil?
You can turn to God at anytime, and when you do, your evil deeds will be seen as guideposts leading you to redemption, not fence-posts keeping you from it.
I like your use of James 5:19-20, Christ had compassion for all sinners,
and for us to go out and bring someone back is the Sharing in that same compassion, It is the Holy Spirit working in us and the one we bring back.
Its never us, but Christ working through us.
I think protestants do that with a lot of trouble passages
In Mt experience, Yes they do, wait they can't explain or expain away, they throw out..
God bless,
Johnnie o
Last edited on Wed Aug 8th, 2007 01:45 pm by Johnnie o
____________________
All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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ecassidy
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 04:43 pm |
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Racaela,
Be patient. I was one of those Protestants (raised Catholic, though) who did exactly what your family is doing. BUT...I kept reading Scripture systematically. Then...one year, I started to really look at these verses that challenged what I believed. That was the beginning of my...Journey Home! Haha, Marcus Grodi might get a kick out of that.
Seriously, just keep praying for them.
Grace and peace,
Gene
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