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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 146 |
| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 07:14 pm |
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So, for me, Sola Scriptura was one of the first things that fell. Actually, it fell right BEFORE I started really looking into Catholicism, and when it fell it scared me. Where did I stand now? Then I began doing more hardcore research of Catholicism. I can counter just about any argument for Sola Scriptura, but there are a few I could use help with.
Argument 1: You say that by using sola scriptura we protestants are merely each taking our own opinions and reading them into the Bible, you know, each his own interpretation of scripture, rather than just accepting the authority of the Church. But, isn't accepting the authority of the Church actually you voicing and following your own opinion - that the Church is right? We may have to decide how to interpret scripture, but you simply decide to leave that all up to the church - either way, it's a decision.
Argument 2: If it's not sola scriptura, it's sola ecclesia. If the Church is to interpret scripture, the Church is OVER scripture and can make it say whatever it wants, reinterpret it in any way. So, what you're doing is accepting that whatever the Church says - rather than what the scripture says - as correct. If the two come in conflict, the Church wins, as it can interpret the scripture however it chooses.
Could you help me out? I do believe that the Church is infallible, but these are still troubling arguments, and I want to better be able to refute them. I'm bracing for the inevitable dicussions with my father.
____________________
"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 07:52 pm |
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| When I became aware of the church's teaching of the magisterium, apostolic succession, Tradition, and the fallacy of Sola Scriptura, it was frightening as you say. For someone who has been taught their whole life that the Bible is the one and only authority, it is frightening to even think otherwise. It is almost as if the Bible itself is idolized. It was only when I began to understand early church history, how the Bible as we know it evolved through the translations, that I understood the church's authority in interpreting scripture. The Bible is God's word given to us and preserved by the catholic church.
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 273 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 07:56 pm |
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In one sense, it is always your opinion because you are choosing who/what to believe. If i choose to believe Sola Scriptura, my opinion is that it is right. If I choose to believe, the 3 church pillars of Scripture, tradition and magisterium, it is still my opinion that it is right. Thus what I believe is irrelevent.
So the real question is: what is objectively true whether we believe it or not? Most conservative protestants can apreciate this position. They also believe in absolute truth.
So the answer to argument #2 is to attack the idea that the church interpreting scripture means that the church is over scripture. If a protestant interprets scripture, does that mean he is placing himself over scripture? Even protestants use Bible commentaries to help understand scripture. The church and magisterium are acting as our Bible commentary, and being better educated than us, helping us understand the scripture we are reading.
So the church interpreting scripture is like asking an X-ray tech to interpret an X-ray because he is better trained to undestand what he sees. Obviously, if we see the x-ray where the bone is clearly broken and the tech is telling us different, we should say so. In the same way, the Church does not ask us to do something or believe something we can't seem to understand, only to be open to logical reasoning and instruction.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 08:33 pm |
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| Racaela, it would be wonderful if you were able to explain what you have learned to your father so that he understands. But it sounds to me like your parents have built their whole life and family around their fundamentalist ideas and it may be that they cannot accept another belief system without things crumbling around them. If you are planning to debate them in such a way as to show them where they are wrong, it may not work out the way you want it to, even if you are right on every point. If your mom cannot stand to see a picture of Jesus and His mother Mary on your wall, in your own room, I don't see them being flexible enough to listen to you debate Sola Scriptura or the merits of the authority of the early church fathers. I know that many of us here on the forum will pray for you and your family, and the Holy Spirit can work any kind of miracle, but be prepared for a lonely journey if that is God's will for you at present. Not everything can be worked out with intellect, logic and reason, especially when emotions run so high. God bless
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Racaela Fultz
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| Joined: | Sat Aug 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Indiana USA |
| Posts: | 146 |
| First Name: | Racaela | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Nondenominational, will be Catholic Advent 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 08:51 pm |
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Yes, Marsha, I understand that. And you are very right about everything being built on fundamentalist beliefs. I am, in my parents' eyes, a complete failure. Marsha, you mentioned that this may be a lonely journey. Now, though my parents and friends where I grew up will not understand me, I am fortunately not without many wonderful friends. I have my boyfriend and his family, who love me dearly, several good Catholic friends at school, and several protestant friends at school who are understanding of what I'm going through and won't leave me. And you guys too. Plus, there is the tremendous love of Jesus surrounding me, and his mother and saints. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about things, because God has blessed me SO much, and my parents truly do love me.
With my mother, as someone once pointed out to me, it's just that she's not interested in logic or what is right or wrong. She's not logical, she's emotional. She simply WILL NOT change any view, and has made that clear. I'm okay with that, I just need her to accept that I believe differently. So, anyway, using logic or arguments simply will not work with my mother, so I abandoned that tactic quite some time ago.
My father, though, is more open to change than she is, though he is still completely convinced that he is right. When he learns that I am serious, he will then ask me for reasons and reasonably listen, though he will, in all probability, simply not accept what I say. He will, though, at some point, hear me out. The problem is that the whole time he is hearing me out he will make it obvious that I'm hurting him a lot. He has already made that clear. It is for him that I make sure that my arguments are lined up. He really will ask me to make my point at some point, I just don't know when. He says we're going to have a "talk" when he takes me up to school on Tuesday. I'm not looking forward to that, but am praying for it and offering up every little annoyance or pain for it. I'm not sure what all will come out, but I'm praying for wisdom. I'm not going to change his mind, I know that, I just need him to accept what I believe. And he may not. And I may have to live with that.
I am facing a lot of emotional manipulation here, and I don't see any way to stop it, so I'm just living with it. I'll be back at school in a week, and I don't intend to live at home next summer. I simply can't.
So, I guess, the issue I'm having is with the argument as follows: "Everyone is responsible for what they believe, so better for them to decide for themselves what to believe (ie what the Bible says) than for them to forfeit logic and merely stake everything on a "fallible" Church being correct in every matter. That is, in effect, turning our brains off. We are accountable to God for what we do and do not believe, and saying, "well, I believed it because the Church says" won't cut it. Everyone decides what to believe, it's just that some investigate it for themselves while others abandon using their brains and stake everything on the Church being right."
Now I know some of the counter. I mean, the reasons I believe the Church is infallible, for instance. Or that, with tradition and Bible scholars, the Church is pretty surely correct in its interpretations. But can anyone add anything? I'd like to have a stronger counter, even if just for myself, regardless of whether I actually have to use it.
And yes, as everyone has been saying, I will NOT change my parents' beliefs through debate. Only God will change their hearts, and my quiet, gently, loving (at least I strive to embody these things!) example will help more than being argumentative and debating.
____________________
"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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mg57
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 169 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 10:58 pm |
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Racaela -
You said -
"But can anyone add anything? I'd like to have a stronger counter, even if just for myself, regardless of whether I actually have to use it."
You're speaking here of what would come out of your own personal faith formation / experience. For what it's worth, I'd like to recommend several books which would serve to mentor you by both example and intellect. I've taken the liberty to list some that may help, ( not in any order ) -
1. "Witness To Hope" by George Weigel
2. "Letters To A Young Catholic" by George Weigel
3. "Salt Of The Earth" interview with Cardinal Ratzinger by Peter Seewald
4. "The Great Ideas" by Mortimer J. Adler - ( American philosopher, convert to the Catholic Faith late in life)
5. "Mother Benedict - Foundress Of The Abbey Of Regina Laudis" by Antoinette Bosco
6. "Spiritual Passages" by Fr. Benedict Groeschel
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 11:03 pm |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: I am, in my parents' eyes, a complete failure. . . . .God has blessed me SO much, and my parents truly do love me.
As a parent, I'm pretty sure right now your parents are thinking they are the complete failures, because they haven't been able to mold you into exactly the form they wanted! As parents we have noble dreams of what our children will grow up to be, because we think if we do this and don't do that, we can control the future, but we can't. We love our children so much and want every good thing for them, but somewhere along the way they turn into people in their own right. It's hard to stand back and let them do that (I'm going through the same type of thing with my own child). Keep reminding yourself that yes, your parents do truly love you, it just takes time for them to learn who the real you is, not who they dreamed for you to be!
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 217 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 12:35 am |
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Racaela Fultz wrote: "Everyone is responsible for what they believe, so better for them to decide for themselves what to believe (ie what the Bible says) than for them to forfeit logic and merely stake everything on a "fallible" Church being correct in every matter. That is, in effect, turning our brains off. We are accountable to God for what we do and do not believe, and saying, "well, I believed it because the Church says" won't cut it. Everyone decides what to believe, it's just that some investigate it for themselves while others abandon using their brains and stake everything on the Church being right."
I think the best way to counter this kind of argument is to point out that while scripture may be inerrant, the bible doesn't say anywhere what books should be in the bible, the Guttenberg bible, and the original KJV both had the seven books in the old testament later rejected by protestantism. Who has the authority to decide what books should be in the Bible? The Synod of Rome, Pope Damasus, The Council of Hippo, The Council of Carthage, Pope Innocent, Mohammed, Martin Luther, or John Smith?
If you reject the idea of an authoritative church, you reject the idea of the bible, because no one has the authority to say which books should be in the bible.
Should we agree with Martin Luther's earlier decision and remove James, Hebrews, and Revelation from the bible? Should we add 1st Clement as the ancient Church in Corinth did? Should we add the Da Vinci Code, the Left behind series and Harry Potter? Whatever response given one can counter with the childish favorite "Says who?" Without an authority, it's just opinion, and regardless how many people might agree with Martin Luther's final OPINION on what books should belong in the bible it's still just that.
So ultimately, even the Mormon position makes more sense than the protestant one . Of course the Catholic position makes more sense still
Regards Dave
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | unregister | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | unregister |
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 03:35 pm |
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So, for me, Sola Scriptura was one of the first things that fell. Actually, it fell right BEFORE I started really looking into Catholicism, and when it fell it scared me. Where did I stand now? Then I began doing more hardcore research of Catholicism. I can counter just about any argument for Sola Scriptura, but there are a few I could use help with.
Countering Sola Scriptura arguments, my specialty. 
Argument 1: You say that by using sola scriptura we protestants are merely each taking our own opinions and reading them into the Bible,
Correct.
you know, each his own interpretation of scripture, rather than just accepting the authority of the Church.
Correct. Incidently, this is obvious in every Protestant Bible study I've attended.
But, isn't accepting the authority of the Church actually you voicing and following your own opinion - that the Church is right?
Yes. But this is in accordance with Scripture and Tradition and therefore with the Word of God in its Trinitrarian reality.
The Word of God is not simply passed down in Scripture, it is also passed down in Magisterium (i.e. doctrine) and in Tradition. The three things are really one thing. The Magisterium, the Church synthesises and passes down and teaches the contents of Scripture and Tradition. Scripture and Tradition contain the Word of God.
The Catholic Church is the voice of God and God honors our free will. God doesn't say, "don't make a decision." He says, "make the right decision".
We may have to decide how to interpret scripture, but you simply decide to leave that all up to the church - either way, it's a decision.
Not so. We also interpret Scripture. But we compare our interpretations to the teachings of the Church from all antiquity to see if we are in the ball park.
Argument 2: If it's not sola scriptura, it's sola ecclesia. If the Church is to interpret scripture, the Church is OVER scripture and can make it say whatever it wants, reinterpret it in any way.
Not so. That is actually what Protestants wind up doing. For instance, Sola Scriptura. It is no where in Scripture. Yet Protestants take verses from Scripture out of context and force it to say Sola. Yet it isn't there when the word is divided rightly.
Jesus commanded the Church to go and teach what He taught. The Church has been faithful to that Commission for 2000 years.
So, what you're doing is accepting that whatever the Church says - rather than what the scripture says - as correct. If the two come in conflict, the Church wins, as it can interpret the scripture however it chooses.
Wrong. Have you ever studied the famous case of Athanasius vs. Arius? Both Scripture experts. Both believed the Holy Spirit was inspiring their interpretation of Scripture. If handled according to the Protestant custom, Athanasius would have started his own Church and Arius also.
But they didn't. They obeyed the Word of God and took their case to the Church (Matt 18:17). The Church compared their interpretations to the historical interpretations of the elders and to the Traditions of the Church. The Church judged that Athanasius was correct and Arius was wrong.
Could you help me out? I do believe that the Church is infallible, but these are still troubling arguments, and I want to better be able to refute them. I'm bracing for the inevitable dicussions with my father.
I hope that helped. If not, I've got more. In addition, there are plenty of books out there and many websites which can help.
Is Sola Scriptura reasonable?
A list of links, The Bible, Sola Scriptura and Sacred Tradition
What exactly do you mean by Sola Scriptura?
Sincerely,
Juan
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TT17Claret
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| Joined: | Fri Aug 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Summerville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 22 |
| First Name: | Tony T | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 05:29 pm |
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Racaela,
Besides, and to complement, all the good advice given above, I'd like to point you to a couple of good resources: "By What Authority?" by Mark Shea and "Where We Got The Bible, Our Debt To The Catholic Church" by Graham. Both excellent reads.
Tony T.
____________________
Do NOT be discouraged, even Moses started out as a basket case.
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