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DrSharkey
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| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
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Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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I'm sure the answer is in this forum somewhere, but my eyes are getting blurry from reading all the old posts .
As a non-Catholic Christian, I've always understood that the Catholic church "added" books to the bible. I now know otherwise. But I was wondering, who actually decided to remove the particular books? I've heard it was Luther, but I've also read that he wanted the book of James removed, too, but it's in the New Testament that I've used.
Pardon me if this has already been answered. If you know, could you point me to the right topic. I've got to go put some drops in my eyes and blink for a few minutes!!! 
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2282 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 09:43 pm |
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Saving blurry eyes is our specialty, John. That’s why I wear trifocal lenses. (I really do. I have a severe case of early onset presbyopia.)
You’ve heard that it was Martin Luther who removed those “extra books” from the Old Testament. This is the common explanation. He certainly preached and wrote against those books; they didn’t agree with his theology. And when he published his German version of the scriptures, he gathered them all together in an appendix after the other Old Testament books. But historically, it seems that it was a printer who first actually omitted them. It sure saves work and paper, and if they’re not really Class A Scripture anyway, why not just concentrate on the Real Stuff?
Again, yes, Luther did rail against the Epistle of James. And several others as well: the Epistles to the Hebrews, Second of Peter and of Jude, and the book of Revelation. However, when it came to actually removing them, Luther’s friend Philipp Melancthon talked him out of it. So they remained.
David
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JasPax
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | North Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 258 |
| First Name: | James | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopal to Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 01:26 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: (I really do. I have a severe case of early onset presbyopia.)
Are Presbyopians Calvinist or Weslyeans? (I am allowed to joke about this because I have macular degeneration. Just call me squint!)
I've seen early KJV Bibles titled, The Holy Bible with Apocrypha. I understand that later Bible Society groups insisted that the latter be removed because it was, "too Catholic."
God's Blessings,
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James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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TT17Claret
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| Joined: | Fri Aug 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Summerville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 22 |
| First Name: | Tony T | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 05:17 pm |
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| Those 7 books were part of the Septuagint - the Greek version of the Old Testament written in Alexandria, Egypt (the Alexandrian canon). They are heavily quoted from in the New Testament, so they were obviously very well accepted. From what I have read, Jewish authorities near Jamnia around the year 70 AD, decided to officially canonized (?) their Scriptures and those books were left out for reasons that have never been clarified. Some say it was because Christians refered to them so much and the Jews were trying to, at the very least, minimize the spread of Christianity. Others say it was because there were no Hebrew counterpart (or original) to those books, therefore their authenticity could not be verified. When Jerome translated the Scriptures to Latin, he used the latter Jamnia canon and the 7 books were not originally included. The pope at that time instructed Jerome to include them and a new Latin translation was completed with the Septuagint as the Old Testament. It would remain that way until Martin Luther came on the scene. Ironically, the KJV states that it is translated out of the original languages. That would mean the OT in the KJV is translated out of the Jamnia canon and not the Alexandrian one. However, there are at least four books in the OT whose Hebrew titles have nothing to do with their English counterpart. The best example is Numbers. The Hebrew title which, if I recall correctly is "wayyiqra" is translated in the Greek Septuagint as "Arithmoi". Jerome translated it in his Latin as "Liber Numeri", literally "book of Numbers'. So it looks to me as if the folks who translated the KJV forgot to translate the titles from their original Hebrew straight into English
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Do NOT be discouraged, even Moses started out as a basket case.
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DrSharkey
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 07:07 pm |
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TT17Claret wrote: Those 7 books were part of the Septuagint - the Greek version of the Old Testament written in Alexandria, Egypt (the Alexandrian canon). They are heavily quoted from in the New Testament, so they were obviously very well accepted.
Could you please give me some examples (at least 2-4) of where the New Testament quotes from those books? I'd love to be able to give some concrete examples to my friends who doubt the veracity of the Deuterocanon books. Thanks.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2282 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 08:00 pm |
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Here are a couple of lists, John. The first list gives you references to Deuterocanonical texts in the New Testament, and the second gives you references to texts quoted in their Septuagint form in the New Testament. The Septuagint is a Greek version of the bible done in Alexandria, Egypt a couple hundred years before Christ. Containing all the books and additions that the Catholic Church accepts as deuterocanonical, it was accepted by the diaspora Jews, who were in the majority at that time.
http://scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
David
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DrSharkey
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 22nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Jackson, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 38 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Agnostic, Southern Baptist (sorta), church of Christ, looking Romeward |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 08:19 pm |
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| Gratzi!
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Aug 27th, 2007 08:34 pm |
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DrSharkey wrote: Gratzi!
John, I'm a huge fan of the scripture catholic web-site that David has given you a link for. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
Mr. Salza had given me permission to print the entire site into a large binder for use in study purposes, as I go through times, unable to sit up at a PC for more than a few minutes.
It is such a helpful site.
God Bless
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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