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mchoquette
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ooltewah, Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 8 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptist / Presbyterian (PCA). |
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Posted: Tue Oct 16th, 2007 01:22 pm |
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| While sitting in a study class on the book of John in my protestant church last week I noticed something when I was reading John chapter 10 that I had not really paid attention to before. I read verse 16 in my NIV and it stated "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." Now before that Christ states in verse 14 that "I am the good shepherd..." and He goes on to talk about how He knows his sheep and they know Him. In verse 16 he states that there will be one flock and one shepherd. He doesn't say "good shepherd" there, only "shepherd." As a presbyterian I had been told that the sheep that will be brought in are the "elect" and the one shepherd is Christ. But when I read verse 16 the other night it seemed to me that the "one flock" could be referring to the Catholic church (the one church) and that the one shepherd (minus the word "good") could be referring to the pope. Am I correct? What does the Catholic church teach about this verse? I have been studying about the Catholic church for sometime now and little by little verses are popping out at me that I have read many times over but have not really noticed before. Is this verse (16) referring to the Catholic church as the one true church and to the pope as the one shepherd?
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Michael
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Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 731 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 16th, 2007 01:36 pm |
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| It seems to refer to a unified Church with one shepherd looking after her, which would be Christ. The Pope is Christ's representative on earth.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 229 |
| First Name: | Jeff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Roman Rite) |
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Posted: Tue Oct 16th, 2007 02:08 pm |
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mchoquette wrote: While sitting in a study class on the book of John in my protestant church last week I noticed something when I was reading John chapter 10 that I had not really paid attention to before. I read verse 16 in my NIV and it stated "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."
Now before that Christ states in verse 14 that "I am the good shepherd..." and He goes on to talk about how He knows his sheep and they know Him. In verse 16 he states that there will be one flock and one shepherd. He doesn't say "good shepherd" there, only "shepherd."
As a presbyterian I had been told that the sheep that will be brought in are the "elect" and the one shepherd is Christ. But when I read verse 16 the other night it seemed to me that the "one flock" could be referring to the Catholic church (the one church) and that the one shepherd (minus the word "good") could be referring to the pope.
Am I correct? What does the Catholic church teach about this verse? I have been studying about the Catholic church for sometime now and little by little verses are popping out at me that I have read many times over but have not really noticed before. Is this verse (16) referring to the Catholic church as the one true church and to the pope as the one shepherd? Well, let's look at what some of the Church Fathers have interpreted this verse to mean (from the Catena Aurea on John 10):GREG. But as He came to redeem not only the Jews, but the Gentiles, He adds, And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold.
AUG. The sheep hitherto spoken of are those of the stock of Israel according to the flesh. But there were others of the stock of Israel, according to faith, Gentiles, who were as yet out of the fold; predestinated, but not yet gathered together. They are not of this fold, because they are not of the race of Israel, but they will be of this fold: Them also I must bring.
CHRYS. What wonder that these should hear My voice, and follow Me, when others are waiting to do the same. Both these flocks are dispersed, and without shepherds; for it follows, And they shall hear My voice. And then He foretells their future union: And there shall be one fold and one Shepherd.
GREG. Of two flocks He makes one fold, uniting the Jews and Gentiles in His faith.
THEOPHYL. For there is one sign of baptism for all, and one Shepherd, even the Word of God. Let the Manichean mark; there is but one fold and one Shepherd set forth both in the Old and New Testaments.
So that's some of the picture. St. Gregory of Nyssa (I think that's the Gregory being quoted) interprets the sheep that are "not of this fold" are the Gentiles (as does St. Augustine). St. John Chrysostom points out there are those who hear Jesus and follow him, and those who are waiting to do so, and they will be united under a common shepherd. St. Theophilus focuses on the Manichean heresy which denied that the God of the Old Testament was the God of the New Testament; here, St. Theophilus says that the "shepherd" in both testaments (God) is the same.
There are other Church Father references to this verse (which you can find at CCEL.org, or by following this link).
I'll write more about what they say after my lunch break. Suffice to say, I think John 10:16 speaks to the mission to the Gentiles (those not of Israel), and also to the absolute unity of Jesus' flock to one shepherd. This is important in light of John 21:17 where Jesus tells Peter to watch over his -- that is, Jesus' -- sheep. Peter is given charge over all of Jesus' flock: just as local bishops are in charge of their dioceses, so Peter, the prime bishop, the pope (and his successors after him), are in charge of all the mini-flocks that make up the one flock.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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faithfl1
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 64 |
| First Name: | Sharon | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | protestant, non-denominational (born-again), Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Oct 16th, 2007 02:30 pm |
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Hi Michael! Great Name!! (that was, -He's passed on -/is my Brother's name
It is so wonderful to hear how Jesus is leading you home!!(to the RCC) I am a convert who kept going from Church to Church (even after my conversion)! But am now home for good in the one True Church of Jesus Christ and am thrilled and over joyed!! God Bless! I pray that God give you the wisdom you need while you continue your Journey!
I recommend, if you haven't already done so, that you read the conversion stories on this forum. It's such great inspiration to see how God has revealed his Truth to other's.
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Sharon S.
...I love you, Lord, my strength Psalm 18:2
I have the strength for everything through Him who empowers me. Phil 4:13
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japhy
Member
| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 229 |
| First Name: | Jeff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Roman Rite) |
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Posted: Tue Oct 16th, 2007 04:34 pm |
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I'd like to point out that the word "pastor" comes directly from the Latin pastor, which means... "shepherd"!
Here is more Church Father literature on John 10:16...
From Pope St. Leo the Great, [url=]http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf212.ii.v.xxxii.html]Sermon LXIII[/url], VI: It is He Who, without excluding any nation, makes one flock of holy sheep from every nation under heaven, and daily fulfils what He promised, saying, “Other sheep also I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” For though to the blessed Peter first and foremost He says, “Feed My sheep;” yet the one Lord directs the charge of all the shepherds, and feeds those that come to the rock with such glad and well-watered pastures, that countless sheep are nourished by the richness of His love, and hesitate not to perish for the Shepherd’s sake, even as the good Shepherd Himself was content to lay down His life for His sheep.
St. Cyprian, in Epistle LXXV (to Magnus), 5, writes: And therefore the Lord, suggesting to us a unity that comes from divine authority, lays it down, saying, “I and my Father are one.” To which unity reducing His Church, He says again, “And there shall be one flock, and one shepherd.” But if the flock is one, how can he be numbered among the flock who is not in the number of the flock? Or how can he be esteemed a pastor, who,—while the true shepherd remains and presides over the Church of God by successive ordination,—succeeding to no one, and beginning from himself, becomes a stranger and a profane person, an enemy of the Lord’s peace and of the divine unity, not dwelling in the house of God, that is, in the Church of God, in which none dwell except they are of one heart and one mind, since the Holy Spirit speaks in the Psalms, and says, “It is God who maketh men to dwell of one mind in a house.”
St. Cyprian, in Treatise I (On the Unity of the Church), 8, writes: Who, then, is so wicked and faithless, who is so insane with the madness of discord, that either he should believe that the unity of God can be divided, or should dare to rend it—the garment of the Lord—the Church of Christ? He Himself in His Gospel warns us, and teaches, saying, “And there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” And does any one believe that in one place there can be either many shepherds or many flocks? The Apostle Paul, moreover, urging upon us this same unity, beseeches and exhorts, saying, “I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that ye be joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” And again, he says, “Forbearing one another in love, endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” Do you think that you can stand and live if you withdraw from the Church, building for yourself other homes and a different dwelling, when it is said to Rahab, in whom was prefigured the Church, “Thy father, and thy mother, and thy brethren, and all the house of thy father, thou shalt gather unto thee into thine house; and it shall come to pass, whosoever shall go abroad beyond the door of thine house, his blood shall be upon his own head?” Also, the sacrament of the passover contains nothing else in the law of the Exodus than that the lamb which is slain in the figure of Christ should be eaten in one house. God speaks, saying, “In one house shall ye eat it; ye shall not send its flesh abroad from the house.” The flesh of Christ, and the holy of the Lord, cannot be sent abroad, nor is there any other home to believers but the one Church. This home, this household of unanimity, the Holy Spirit designates and points out in the Psalms, saying, “God, who maketh men to dwell with one mind in a house.” In the house of God, in the Church of Christ, men dwell with one mind, and continue in concord and simplicity.
Finally, St. Aphrahat, in Demonstration X (Of Pastors), 4, writes: O ye pastors, be ye made like unto that diligent pastor, the chief of the whole flock, who cared so greatly for his flock. He brought nigh those that were afar off. He brought back the wanderers. He visited the sick. He strengthened the weak. He bound up the broken. He guarded the fatlings. He gave himself up for the sake of the sheep. He chose and instructed excellent leaders, and committed the sheep into their hands, and gave them authority over all his flock. For He said to Simon Cephas:—Feed My sheep and My lambs and My ewes. So Simon fed His sheep; and he fulfilled his time and handed over the flock to you, and departed. Do ye also feed and guide them well. For the pastor who cares for his sheep engages in no other pursuit along with that. He does not make a vineyard, nor plant gardens, nor does he fall into the troubles of this world. Never have we seen a pastor who left his sheep in the wilderness and became a merchant, or one who left his flock to wander and became a husbandman. But if he deserts his flock and does these things he thereby hands over his flock to the wolves.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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