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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 772 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sat Dec 1st, 2007 11:41 am |
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How does the Church explain the contrast between Ecclesiastes 9:5, "….. For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything ..…", Romans 8:35-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life ………nor future things …." can separate us from god’s love and the story of the Mount of Transfiguration?
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Dec 1st, 2007 06:30 pm |
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Hi Criff,
How does the Church explain the contrast between Ecclesiastes 9:5, "….. For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything ..…", Romans 8:35-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life ………nor future things …." can separate us from god’s love and the story of the Mount of Transfiguration?
This is an instance of what is called "phenomenological" language: the language of outward description or appearance rather than complete metaphysical analysis. So to us on the earth the dead (i.e., a dead person or a body) "know not anything." The Jews were very concrete; not particularly metaphysical (that was the Greeks several centuries after this was written).
Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists and other sects and cults that teach what is known as annihilationism or soul-sleep (no consciousness after death and no hell, with the sinner being annihilated out of existence altogether) typically rely on the distortion of a few passages in order to "prove" their error:Ecclesiastes 9:5: . . . the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward . . .
If the first clause is understood in an absolute sense, then so must the second clause be interpreted. Thus, the dead would have no "reward" as well as no consciousness. This would deny the resurrection and the rewarding of the righteous (see Rev 20:11-13, 21:6-7, 22:12,14). Obviously, then, a qualification of some sort has to be placed on Ecc 9:5. In the very next verse, we learn that: . . . neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. In other words, in relation to this world, the dead know nothing, but they are in a different realm, where they do know something. As further examples of this limited sense of "not knowing anything" in Scripture, see 1 Sam 20:39 and 2 Sam 15:11, where an interpretation of unconsciousness would be ridiculous. Ezekiel 18:4 (also 18:20): . . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Here, the spiritual use of "death" in the Bible is overlooked. For instance, 1 Timothy 5:6 reads: But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. (cf. Eph 2:1 and Lk 15:24) That Ezekiel 18:4,20 refers to spiritual death (i.e., separation from God, not annihilation) is obvious from context, since 18:21 declares: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Since all men die physically, this must be talking about the spiritual, or "second" death. So much for this "proof" . . . Psalm 146:4: His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This verse's meaning is similar to that of Ecclesiastes 9:5. Here, "thoughts" refer to "unaccomplished purposes" of a person on earth. Death puts an end to those purposes, as anyone would agree. In this sense, one's thoughts "perish" at death. Another similar use occurs at Isaiah 55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteousness man his thoughts . . . This doesn't mean that unrighteous men must cease all thinking and become unconscious and nonexistent. Nor does Ps 146:4. Much of this sort of inadequate and erroneous exegesis results from a profound lack of understanding of the many literary forms and devices used in Scripture, as seen in these three examples. Much of the OT is poetry of one sort or another. One cannot interpret poetry in a wooden, literal way.
Ironically, Muslims and atheists, in their efforts to oppose Christianity, often commit the same sort of basic interpretational or linguistic error.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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