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Jackie
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 09:12 pm |
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At brunch on tuesday my Bible-believing friend was telling a story about her hubby backing out of an agreement to become partner at the office where he works. There were problems with final drafts and bottom line money issues. She did not go into private detail but just from the sound of it, they did the right thing before final contracts were signed. My problem is with a left handed comment about being "unequally yoked"
It was said once before, years ago, when we discussed a friend who was having marriage difficulties and a few girlfriends all trumped this point, that since one was a believer and one was not, they were pretty much doomed since they could not co-exist together in harmony.
Now she may have been pissy when she said this and was trying to find a way to justify her anger or resentment but I find myself wondering if this verse (2 Corinthians 6:14-15 "Do not be yoked with those who are different, with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What accord has Christ with a liar? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?") is being used the proper way in these instances.
The most recent was made because some in the office were unbelievers and of Jewish decent and the one years ago was because one was Catholic and the other a back-sliding (?) protestant.
I think the verse is for use with-in the church and ministry. Am I wrong or can this be applied to everything. I can really let my mind wander on this issue and it's not pretty.
Your thoughts and insights would be appreciated. J
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 09:33 pm |
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| Well, my impression has been, over the years, that if you are unequally yoked, so to speak, that you may be in for some tears and heartbreak. I have a sister in law who has long been a committed Christian. She married a guy who was not and who, well, let's just say there were problems and she did have some tears and heartbreak. However, by her witness and love, she finally won her husband to Christ (or, more accurately, Christ working through her, His faithful servant, won her husband to Himself). I have known of other unequally yoked couples and the husband or wife won their spouse to Christ when probably no other influence would have worked. Of course, sometimes the non-Christian spouse just never turns to Christ and I can only pity them at that last day when they have to go off into the darkness while their spouse goes to be with Jesus. I have known of people working in jobs or in various other situations where they were Christians "yoked" with nonbelievers and yet their faith and good example helped win people over. I've been told, in previous employment, that I have been such an influence and have felt so humbled and in awe of God that He somehow used me to be of service to Him in ways I had no idea he was using me. I remember one woman, at a previous workplace, who came up to me one day and just said, with some amazement and perplexity in her voice, "You are just NOT like other people!!! What IS it with you?!" I told her that I believe in God and am a follower of Jesus Christ and commended Him to her. She went off looking shocked and I never knew if she looked into the Christian faith any further (I just did not get the opportunity), however, I hope that I might have somehow "planted a little seed" of faith which the Lord might have nurtured and nourished until it flowered as faith in her heart. I think that someday we will be able to see what happened in our lives and be sorrowful about someways in which we sinned and caused others pain and will be surprised and joyful about ways in which we were actually of service to God and never knew during life.
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BeProf
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Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 04:17 pm |
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The term "unequally yoked" tends to get thrown around a lot in the fundamentalist churches I used to attend. I've heard the term used to condemn everything from believers marrying unbelievers to christians doing business with non-christians to interracial marriage to even associating with christians of a different denomination.
I think the term gets lifted out of context and abused quite a bit and I think the key to understanding the term is the broader context of II Cor. 5:16 - 7:1. Paul begins this passage talking about the fact that we are new creations in Christ and ambassadors for Christ. Speaking of his own ministry, Paul says that they (Paul and his fellow workers) put no obstacles in anyone's way but commended themselves by all sorts of hardships and holiness and teaching and so forth. They were treated with great dishonor and hardship, but Paul rejoices in his afflictions because he knows he has what is really true. Paul then exhorts the Corinthians to widen their hearts in the same way and we arrive at the critical passage. Paul exhorts the Corinthian church to remain separate and paraphrases for them a few verses from the prophets and then concludes with a final exhortation to cleanse themselves of every defilement.
So what's he talking about here? Is it marriage? Is it something else? I think Paul's making a direct allusion to the Old Covenant's "purity laws." These were laws that usually had to do with Israel being commanded to not do the detestable things that the pagans around them were doing - mixed cloth, shaving their beards in a certain way, getting tattoos for the dead, that sort of thing. Part of that was marriage to be sure, but it was so much more than that too.
I think what Paul is driving at here is reminding the Corinthians that they are a *different* people, called out from among the pagans and redeemed by the blood of Christ. We are in the world, but we are not of the world. People should be able to look at our lives and know that we're different. We're marked. We serve a different master. We don't do the same things they do. We may dance and drink and have some fun, but we don't revel in debauchery like they do. We may dress well... even fashionably... but we don't uncover ourselves immodestly. We may be friends or business partners with unbelievers but our relationship with them is and should be different than our relationship with fellow believers. What Paul is telling the Corinthians (and us) is that we shouldn't let unbelievers hold us back in our walk with Christ.
That's what "unequally yoked" refers to as a metaphor after all - yoking oxen or horses of different strengths together. If you do that, going in a straight line becomes difficult. You constantly have to hold back the stronger animal. Instead of making the weaker one strong, you just end up bringing the strong one down to the level of the weak one. This is one of those terms that made instant sense to people who dealt with horses everyday, but not to us. The Amish read this and go, "Oh yeah! I know exactly what he means!" We read it and we're like, "Huh?" Perhaps a better metaphor for us would be, "Don't put believing and unbelieving tires on the same car. You'll just end up going in circles."
It's not that you have to go through a checklist of your friends and say "Nope not a christian. Yep, a christian," and then only associate with the christians. That's legalism. But when your unbelieving friends come to you with whatever it is they seem to think is fun but you know is dishonoring to God... don't feel like you have to "play along" for their sake.
And for the record, I don't think believers marrying unbelievers is a good idea at all. Of course, I wasn't a believer at the time my believing wife married me and it all ended up working out ok in the end, but that's should be seen as the exception and not the rule. It was hell on earth for both of us until God found a way to break through to me and bring me back to Him. God gave her special grace to handle that and it's not the kind of thing you should just rush into without giving it some *serious* thought. I understand that things happen and the person you thought was a good christian ends up to be a hypocrite, but there's a difference between that and purposefully testing God by putting yourself in bad situations.Last edited on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 04:24 pm by BeProf
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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BeProf wrote: there's a difference between that and purposefully testing God by putting yourself in bad situations.
"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen"
"I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more, and to avoid the near occasion of sin."
Maybe there's something to those old Catholic prayers, after all! 
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Jackie
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 12:56 am |
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BeProf wrote:
I think what Paul is driving at here is reminding the Corinthians that they are a *different* people, called out from among the pagans and redeemed by the blood of Christ. We are in the world, but we are not of the world. People should be able to look at our lives and know that we're different. We're marked. We serve a different master. We don't do the same things they do. We may dance and drink and have some fun, but we don't revel in debauchery like they do. We may dress well... even fashionably... but we don't uncover ourselves immodestly. We may be friends or business partners with unbelievers but our relationship with them is and should be different than our relationship with fellow believers. What Paul is telling the Corinthians (and us) is that we shouldn't let unbelievers hold us back in our walk with Christ.
That's what "unequally yoked" refers to as a metaphor after all - yoking oxen or horses of different strengths together. If you do that, going in a straight line becomes difficult. You constantly have to hold back the stronger animal. Instead of making the weaker one strong, you just end up bringing the strong one down to the level of the weak one. This is one of those terms that made instant sense to people who dealt with horses everyday, but not to us. The Amish read this and go, "Oh yeah! I know exactly what he means!" We read it and we're like, "Huh?" Perhaps a better metaphor for us would be, "Don't put believing and unbelieving tires on the same car. You'll just end up going in circles."
It's not that you have to go through a checklist of your friends and say "Nope not a christian. Yep, a christian," and then only associate with the christians. That's legalism. But when your unbelieving friends come to you with whatever it is they seem to think is fun but you know is dishonoring to God... don't feel like you have to "play along" for their sake.
And for the record, I don't think believers marrying unbelievers is a good idea at all. Of course, I wasn't a believer at the time my believing wife married me and it all ended up working out ok in the end, but that's should be seen as the exception and not the rule. It was hell on earth for both of us until God found a way to break through to me and bring me back to Him. God gave her special grace to handle that and it's not the kind of thing you should just rush into without giving it some *serious* thought. I understand that things happen and the person you thought was a good christian ends up to be a hypocrite, but there's a difference between that and purposefully testing God by putting yourself in bad situations.
OKay BeProf I hear ya, but.....being a light unto the nations is our calling and so our being with/yoked to unbelievers, God could/would use to bring about good. 1 Cor 9:19-22
And as a Catholic if I did fall pray to sin, the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, in right contrition moves me back towards His Grace, His Strength & His Mercy.
As the wife of a race car driver, I know for a fact Allen can drive the car to the finish line on bad tires, he just might not advance to final round, so in a way your metaphor works.
I just hate the idea that there are people out there, check listing IF they should be yoked or unyoked. For the love of God, how then, are we to be Christ to others or carry our cross if we're already second guessing the hardships.
If someone used this verse infront of you, before God turned you around, how would you have reacted? If your wife chose not to cooperate with Grace, (ran the good race) she might have felt beaten down and gone ahead for a divorce, pulled out and threw her hands up!
I guess your right though, sometimes we put ourselves in bad situations and hope for the best. There is room for much hardship there. I gotta ponder this somemore.
Last edited on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 01:01 am by Jackie
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BeProf
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 01:19 am |
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Jackie wrote:
As the wife of a race car driver, I know for a fact Allen can drive the car to the finish line on bad tires, he just might not advance to final round, so in a way your metaphor works.
I think that's the point of this metaphor that Paul's using here. It's not that you can't get anything done with an unequally yoked team of horses anymore than you can't finish the race with a bad tire or two, it's just that it's a lot harder to keep a straight line, so to speak.
I'm not at all saying that we shouldn't be a light to the lost or that we should be friends or anything like that. I just think that there's a line between what's acceptable to God and what isn't and that we shouldn't cross that line for the sake of unbelieving friends. When my unbelieving buddies come to me and say, "Hey Ed, let's go the bar!" I'm in. When they come to me and say, "Hey Ed, let's go the to the strip club." I'm out. If I went there with my non-believing buddies, telling myself that I'm just going there to tell the strippers about Jesus, I'm kidding myself at best and I'm probably being a hypocrite to boot.
Now sure, God can bring good out of any number of really bad situations and bad decisions. In fact, you could say that it's His specialty. The Good Lord only knows how He's managed to turn some of my really awful decisions (like turning down a free ride honors scholarship at a major engineering college to go to Bob Jones University... for a girl) into good things (like meeting my wife... which never would have happened had I not gone). But the fact hat God is able to redeem our bad and even sinful decisions doesn't make them any less bad or sinful. I mean... God used Pilate's really bad decision to send Jesus to the cross in spite of the fact that he could find no fault in Him to accomplish the greatest good of all - our redemption... but that doesn't let Pilate off the hook for doing it. Know what I mean?
I'm not going to tell you or anybody what to do in any given case, though. I'm not anybody's Priest or Pastor... and let us all take a moment to thank God for that.Last edited on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 01:23 am by BeProf
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Jackie
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 01:26 pm |
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My friend was born/raised Catholic. She now attends CMA, I see you do/did too. Given what you now know or are exploring in the Catholic Faith can you think for a moment how you would have answered this before God turned you around? Not trying to put you on the spot, just curious. Jackie
BeProf wrote:
And for the record, I don't think believers marrying unbelievers is a good idea at all. Of course, I wasn't a believer at the time my believing wife married me.......
in response to BeProf Jackie wrote:
If someone used this verse infront of you, before God turned you around, how would you have reacted?
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BeProf
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 04:14 pm |
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Jackie wrote:
My friend was born/raised Catholic. She now attends CMA, I see you do/did too. Given what you now know or are exploring in the Catholic Faith can you think for a moment how you would have answered this before God turned you around? Not trying to put you on the spot, just curious. Jackie
BeProf wrote:
And for the record, I don't think believers marrying unbelievers is a good idea at all. Of course, I wasn't a believer at the time my believing wife married me.......
in response to BeProf Jackie wrote:
If someone used this verse infront of you, before God turned you around, how would you have reacted?
Oh no! I'm not talking about relationships between christians of different denominations. I don't treat my Catholic brothers and sisters any different that I treat my Presbyterian brothers and sisters or fellow members of the C&MA. What I mean by "believing" vs. "unbelieving" is between people that have had a real conversion and those who haven't.
I think we're hitting that whole "language barrier" issue.
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Jackie
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 08:51 pm |
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I'm sorry BeProf, I am not trying to get us lost in a language barrier. If we were all sitting over coffee chatting this may not seem so disjointed and it may appear as if I am being uncharitable driving you into a response but I am not. These forums have been a blessing to me and I do not wish to turn people off.
Let me try to refocus. I set the table of this thread with a story of a friend who used a particular verse to state, albeit backhandedly, that the business venture they were going to undertake fell through and that was fine since they (parties involved in the contract) were unequally yoked. That same verse was used years prior when discussing a friend who was having marriage difficulty. Unequally yoked here probably ment that the protestant was not "walking" with the Lord and (cringe) the Catholic well, wasn't saved.
My query, initially was, is that verse being misused just to suit the moment/situation? If the Church was being set up then, was it refering to ministries within the Church between righteousness/lawlessness, light/dark, believers/unbelievers? Or do we assign this to everything?
Marshall brought up that we are to be a good example (light) and whatever seed is planted, God will water. I agree.
Im confused because I feel this verse was used to assuage anger over the contracts not going thru. If the verse held any merit to which they speak, then they would not have considered it in the first place. See what I mean.
Ed, you brought forth a good point about us not going through our checklist so to only have oursevles associate with "christians". That's legalism you said.
My understanding is, that we are called to be a light unto the nations and if we are going to previously consider who we will be Jesus to and second guess the struggle and hardships of being unequally yoked, then were being too selective and perhaps removing ourselves from situations where God can use us. Never mind that it just sounds hurtful to backhand a comment to justify oursevles.
It was your "for the record comment" that made me curious as to how you would have handled that if it was said to you before you became a believer?
Your answer mattered to me since your history described you as athiest, fundamentalist & now CMA (which my friend is now)
Your right, we are Christ's. Of that, I think we all agree.
The verse was misused. And if it was me, the unbeliever, that heard someone say that about or around me then that would turned me off completly. Period!
That's what I'm talking about. That's where I was looking for help understanding. That's why your thoughts were appreciated.
I remain in His love.................................Jackie
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BeProf
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 09:20 pm |
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I see your point. Had I heard something like that when I was an unbeliever, I would have been put off. In all fairness, though, there are plenty of things that were true that you could have said to me at that time that would have put me off: "You're going to hell." "God loves you." "You're just hurting yourself." "Jesus died for you."
But we need to always speak the truth in love, even if that's what being "unequally yoked" really means, we need to be careful in how we say that to people and to always... always... *always*... be charitable towards each other.
I'll pray for your friend, btw.
And off-topic, if you have any questions at all about the C&MA, just let me know. I'll do the best I can to answer them.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 02:19 am |
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BeProf wrote: And off-topic, if you have any questions at all about the C&MA, just let me know. I'll do the best I can to answer them.
I'm not familiar with them at all. I would appreciate a new topic which presented the basic teachings and practices of the organization.
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BeProf
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 03:09 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
BeProf wrote: And off-topic, if you have any questions at all about the C&MA, just let me know. I'll do the best I can to answer them.
I'm not familiar with them at all. I would appreciate a new topic which presented the basic teachings and practices of the organization.
Sure... where do you think the best place for it would be?
Fellowship? Here?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 06:42 pm |
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BeProf wrote: Fellowship? Here?
Why not go ahead and post it in Fellowship Hall. We'll take a look at it and move it if it seems it would be more appropriate elsewhere.
Thanks.
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germangreek
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:30 pm |
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BeProf wrote: I see your point. Had I heard something like that when I was an unbeliever, I would have been put off. In all fairness, though, there are plenty of things that were true that you could have said to me at that time that would have put me off: "You're going to hell." "God loves you." "You're just hurting yourself." "Jesus died for you."
But we need to always speak the truth in love, even if that's what being "unequally yoked" really means, we need to be careful in how we say that to people and to always... always... *always*... be charitable towards each other.
The passage, in context, pretty clearly means that a Christian should not take a non-Christian for a spouse. And, in fact, I have raised my children pretty clearly to consider only a Catholic, or someone willing to become Catholic, for courtship. And those who have gotten married have done so, sparing themselves possible heartbreak, and certain disagreement with dear old dad! Of course, heartbreak is possible anyway, and some Christian/nonChristian marriages work out very well.
Whether it illustrates a principle that has wider application is not clear. Possibly the husband and the partnership were not a good fit, or the contract writer wasn't very good at his job, but those issues are usually much less easy to discern than the obvious "A is a Christian, B is not."
I do think that we hear Scripture misapplied frequently. How often is it said of someone that "his right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing" to suggest that the subject is a numbskull, not that he laudably avoids ostentation in his religious practice.
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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Jackie
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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germangreek wrote: The passage, in context, pretty clearly means that a Christian should not take a non-Christian for a spouse. And, in fact, I have raised my children pretty clearly to consider only a Catholic, or someone willing to become Catholic, for courtship.
Maybe this is where my Dad, who accuses me of being thick-headed applies.  When we first read of Paul in this book, 2 Corinthians, he is talking about how he preached the Gospel and how he felt compelled to defend himself somewhat regarding troubles, hardships, grief ect......but I thought he was refering to the ministry to spread the Gospel (ie the Church)
Therefore trying to incorporate someone who is an unbeliever to spread the Gospel is like asking an athiest to administer the Eucharist on Sunday! Thats' unequally yoked. I realize the Church is full of sinners, (of which I am first in line) and Paul himself talks about reconcilliation in this same book a coupla chapters further on, but he is talking about us as sinners not as unbelievers right? Hence my understanding is, it to be within the Church.
Sooooo.....where did I miss him talking about spouses? This is assumed? Because it's in context? Am I being a stubborn idiot? Or are we going to all agree that we can pick and choose this verse to apply when things fly south and we need to justify "ohhh things just didn't work out because I/we/she was unequally yoked 
I'm still standing on this point:
For the love of God, how then, are we to be Christ to others or carry our cross if we're already second guessing the hardships.
AND
If the verse held any merit to which they speak, then they would not have considered it in the first place.
Precariously standing? True, but so far, otherwise unconvinced. Gosh at this point I feel a trip to confession might be in order. :? My Dad's right, I am think-headed.
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Jackie
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 06:32 pm |
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My Dad's right, I am think-headed.
THAT'S RIPE........NOT A FREUDIAN SLIP I ASSURE YOU but still funny as hell
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sewnsew
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 06:51 pm |
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| When we were getting married my in laws brought up the unequally yoked bit too- and my side brought it up in a more round about way- I have to admit My in- laws meant that they were Christian and I was Anglican( therefore in their eyes possibly not) the convoluted part come in though because my husband had walked away from his church at 18 and never went back so in reality I was marrying the "non believer as much as his family wanted to hide from that fact. My family was concerned because "just because he says he will bring up the kids in your church doesn't mean that he will once they actually are born" 18 years later we are happy and he supports me all the way and has attended church with us first in the Anglican now in the Catholic and I think I see cracks in his confusion ( more than actual non belief)
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germangreek
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 03:02 am |
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Jackie wrote:
I'm still standing on this point:
For the love of God, how then, are we to be Christ to others or carry our cross if we're already second guessing the hardships.
AND
If the verse held any merit to which they speak, then they would not have considered it in the first place.
Well, Christ Himself advises us to count the cost. Whether that amounts to second-guessing the hardships, or whether that's an unreasonable approach in the circumstance, I'd have to leave to your best judgement.
I think what you really mean to say is they SHOULD not have considered it in the first place. I know, and you probably do too, as many cases in which a mixed marriage (not just applying the Catholic definition) worked out well as did not. People sometimes see a soul that lives for God despite the outward appearance. And sometimes they deceive themselves about what they see.
____________________
"The purpose of an open mind, like that of an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." GK Chesterton.
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