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3John4
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 13th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dede | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Protestant, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 04:33 pm |
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In a lenten bible study I am attending at my parish, the facilitator last week stated that Abraham is the first character in the bible that we believe actually existed. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, etc. may simply have been literary devices.
WHAT????
Is this a commonly held opinion in the CC? I have never heard this before.
Dede
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Dave Armstrong
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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Hi Dede,
His opinion is sheer nonsense and not Catholic teaching. If Adam and Eve are not regarded as actual human beings, and the parents of the human race, then the doctrine of the Fall of man goes down with that, and we are smack dab in the middle of the Pelagian heresy, which holds that man is saved by his own works, and is not in need of being rescued from a fallen condition. The fall is clearly taught in the Bible; especially by St. Paul.
The Catechism refers to Adam and Eve eight times, and ties in their rebellion to the fall of man at least three times (#399, 404, 417).
Cain and Abel are referred to as actual human beings twice, and their actions also connected to original sin.
God made a covenant with Noah. It's pretty difficult to make a covenant with an imaginary, fictional person. Thus, the Catechism refers to Noah and the flood, and what is called the Noachic Covenant, nine times.
There is also abundant NT evidence of the casual assumption that all these early human beings were indeed historical figures. Paul connects Adam with Moses, in Romans 5:14. In 1 Cor 15:22 and 15:45 he draws a direct parallel between Adam and Jesus Christ: the one bringing death upon the human race, and the other being the cause of spiritual and eternal life (pretty weird, if he didn't even exist historically). He again mentions Adam and Eve in 1 Tim 2:13-14. Jude 14 describes Enoch as a descendant of Adam. St. Paul refers to Eve as having been deceived by the devil, in 2 Cor 11:3.
Our Lord Jesus refers quite literally to Abel:
Matthew 23:34-35 (RSV) Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. (cf. Lk 11:51)
The author of Hebrews includes Abel in his catalogue of the heroes of the faith:
Hebrew 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking. (also, he refers to "the blood of Abel" in 12:24)
Noah is included in this same recitation of heroic faith. Note how Abraham is mentioned in the next verse. There is no indication whatsoever that one was a real person and the other a mythical picture only:
Hebrews 11:7-8 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
St. Peter believed that Noah was a real person too:
1 Peter 3:18-21 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, . . .
2 Peter 2:4-5,9 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; . . . then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
Again, the text moves from the fallen angels to Noah, and then to Lot (2:7), who lived in the time of Abraham, and was his nephew, to the time he was writing. Paul is arguing by analogy: "God rescued Noah and Lot; He can do the same for you today." This makes absolutely no sense if the earlier people are imaginary, because you would have the real fallen angels (demons), then the imaginary Noah, then back to reality with Lot and the early Christians. This utterly violates the tenor and nature of the passage, as is the case in similar passages noted above.
I would urge you to stop attending a study "led" by a person this ignorant (or obstinately dissident), unless you are in a position to correct him (which usually doesn't work very long, of course, to have "students" habitually correcting the error of the "teacher"). Try to give him the information in this post alone and see what happens.  It could get ugly very fast. If he thinks he has the Bible and Catholic teaching on his side, let him come here or to my blog and defend his absurd position.
I have no patience whatsoever for people like this (as is surely obvious). They lead others astray. They are the "blind leading the blind," that Jesus talked about. And they will be in deep trouble on Judgment Day if they persist on perpetuating serious error:
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.
Last edited on Wed Feb 20th, 2008 08:30 pm by Dave Armstrong
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 07:55 pm |
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3John4 wrote: In a lenten bible study I am attending at my parish, the facilitator last week stated that Abraham is the first character in the bible that we believe actually existed. Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, etc. may simply have been literary devices.
"Abraham is the first character in the Bible that we believe actually existed." Who is this we? Not the church he is speaking on behalf of! Not anyone I've ever heard! Ask this person for his sources, and then give him a printout of Dave's response. Good grief!
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3John4
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 13th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dede | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Protestant, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 08:11 pm |
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Thanks so much for the quick replies. I am fairly new to this parish, not a lot of people know me--yet. I was dismayed when no one else spoke up after this was said, but will bring Dave's reply with me this week, and try to reopen the subject.
Dede
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 08:35 pm |
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Great, Dede. I wish you the best. I hope I am pleasantly surprised by a positive response on his (her?) part.
You'll want to omit my final section if you print it out, starting with "I would urge you . . ." They wouldn't go over very well.  Just stick to the biblical texts and documentation from the CCC and see what happens. It seems like a "slam dunk" in terms of what the Church and Bible teach. How anyone who claimed to adhere to either could deny it is beyond me.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 09:53 pm |
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Hi Dede, John Martinoni's Talk "Catholics and the Bible" covers this ground with quotes from the catechism, councils, and papal encyclicals showing that as Catholics we must belive in - The Special creation of Man - That woman was created from man - That we are all decended from an original set of first parents etc. There is room for latitude in How we understand these things, we do not necessarily have to believe that Adam's name was Adam, but we do need to believe that the person we identify as Adam actually existed.
I reccomend this talk to you (It's available FREE as cd, tape or mp3 download from http://www.biblechristiansociety.com listen to it for yourself, but I would also recommend passing a copy on to your "teacher" with a question along the line "I don't understand a lot of this stuff, but this guy was saying some things that seem to contradict what you were saying, can you listen to it and tell me where he's wrong?"
I find that playing the dumb innocent works rather well in this kind of situation. Especially if you are dumb like me (Note I didn't claim innocence)
Regards Doc
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3John4
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 13th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dede | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Protestant, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 02:10 am |
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I went to the study tonight, and at the end I went over to the facilitator privately. I told him I had been thinking about what I thought I'd heard him say the week before about Abraham being the first actual confirmed person... I asked him to clarify his statement He basically reitterated what he'd previously said. I told him I had asked an apologist about this because I'd never heard such an assertion, and then pulled out Dave's comments (minus the part about this guy being a knucklehead  ). I gave it to him and just said I was pursuing the subject so that I could understand the Catholic position better, and thought he might like to read a different take on the matter.
Maybe I'm wrong in feeling this way, but this is one reason I've never liked small group bible studies. Most of the time it turns out to be a lot of sharing of personal interpretations with no scholarly guidance. I joined this group because I wanted to get to know more people in the parish. I asked the pastor about starting a more formal adult faith formation type program with trained leadership (and even offered to put up money to get it started) but he told me there is no real interest in that; people don't want to commit to anything long term. Even the DRE told me I was the exception in wanting something like this.
Dede
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 08:26 pm |
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| Good for you, Dede. I think it's great that you shared in a very charitable way with this person. Let's hope he will rectify this error and share his change of mind with the class, so he can "make restitution," so to speak. Keep us posted! Last edited on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 08:28 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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