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Liz65
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Maryland USA |
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| First Name: | Liz | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Multiple Protestant denominations, Episcopalian, Anabaptist |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 07:50 pm |
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I am attempting to reply to a friend who says that a crucifix and statues and icons of Jesus are a violation of the second commandment Can someone help me out here?
"Make unto me no graven images" OK -- this means images of God -- statues icons of saints are not of God -- but since Christ was God,how do answer this? I have no problem myself but when it comes to replying to this I feel at a loss.
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6. Q. Why did God make you?
A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 09:45 pm |
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Hi Liz,
Good question. And rest assured that there are good, solid answers. I wrote a paper on the "veneration of images" issue:
Exposition on the Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, and Idolatry
My frend Steve Ray has a great article: The Cross and the Crucifix.
Statues of Jesus is particularly clear cut, since Jesus is called the "eikon (image) of God" in Scripture. It's the Greek word where we get the word "icon." The Incarnation means that a man was God and God became man. If God can take on flesh and be visible, and was worshiped in this visible form, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with a statue of Jesus serving as a reminder of the incarnate God-man. No one is worshiping plaster, just as no one worships a photograph of a slain military son or a tombstone.
Jesus Reveals, and is the Image of, the Father
Bible passages: KJV
1) JOHN 1:18 . . . the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared {him}. {RSV,NIV: "made him known"}
2) JOHN 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
3) JOHN 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. (8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (9) Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou {then}, Shew us the Father?
4) 2 CORINTHIANS 4:4 . . . Christ, who is the image of God, . . .
5) COLOSSIANS 1:15 . . . the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
6) HEBREWS 1:3 Who being the brightness of {his} glory, and the express image of his person, . . .
7) REVELATION 22:1,3-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb . . . (3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (4) And they shall see his face; . . .
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Candlemass
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| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 462 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 10:40 pm |
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| I'm grateful for the holy images of the Catholic Church, they can help dispel the unholy ones!
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Parodyonlife
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| Joined: | Mon Jan 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | Corning, New York USA |
| Posts: | 113 |
| First Name: | John | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | NEW CATHOLIC!!! W( ) ( )T!!! |
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 12:05 am |
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Candlemass wrote: I'm grateful for the holy images of the Catholic Church, they can help dispel the unholy ones!
Amen
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 770 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 04:31 am |
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| The way I understand it, in the days during which those verses were written people made images, thought of them as gods and they prayed to them and worshiped the images. In the RCC however, we do not worship the images, We use them as reminders or focal points. With all the pressures and stresses humans collect as we go through life, we have a strong tendency for our minds to get away from us and wander. The images give us something on which to focus and help us to keep our mind on our prayers. However, we do all our praying to the saints and the members of the Trinity.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1414 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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Well-stated, Cliff.
There were always images sanctioned by God, even back in OT times: such as the cherubim (angelic creatures) on top of the ark of the covenant, for example. The temple had various images. There was the bronze serpent in the wilderness. The two tablets with the Ten Commandments were images of a sort. So it was clear from the beginning that what was forbidden was not all images whatsoever, but those that were being used for idols (i.e., worshiped as if they were God or a god).
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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BeProf
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:29 pm |
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| Even the Puritans (no fans of the Crucifix) did not understand the Commandment against graven images to include depictions of Jesus, only depictions of the Father. It was the Father who gave that Commandment to Israel and it was to the Father that Israel understood the Commandment to refer.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical "Jesus Freak" (Arminian) / "Lewisian Schaefferite" / Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 06:35 pm |
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That's interesting. Yet on an anti-Catholic Reformed site not too long ago, there was a big, stupid controversy about posting images of Jesus, even though they were mocking Catholic prayer cards. They reasoned that they mustn't have an image of Jesus. It might be idolatry!
How can Our Lord Jesus be an idol in the first place? The first rule or premise of idolatry is that the thing idolized is put in place of God. How can an image of Jesus replace Jesus Himself? Do these anti-Catholics honestly think that Catholics are so dense and clueless that we would actually consciously worship an image of Jesus, with a mind to replacing the Lord Himself, as if we were literally adoring pieces of paper or plastic and not God?
This is what Malcolm Muggeridge would call "fathomless imbecility" . . .
I can only shake my head in befuddled amazement that Christians fall into such absolute folly. It's what can happen when folks follow "traditions of men." I don't mean to be uncharitable; just recognizing and condemning folly when I see it, just as in Proverbs and Psalms.
Last edited on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 06:36 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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leofff
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| Joined: | Fri Apr 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Canada |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Leo | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Religiopath |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 12:29 pm |
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Liz65 wrote: I am attempting to reply to a friend who says that a crucifix and statues and icons of Jesus are a violation of the second commandment Can someone help me out here?
"Make unto me no graven images" OK -- this means images of God -- statues icons of saints are not of God -- but since Christ was God,how do answer this? I have no problem myself but when it comes to replying to this I feel at a loss.
Well, the commandment says to not make any graven images of anything that is in heaven, on earth or in the waters. That covers a lot. If this person actually believes that a crucifix is a violation of the second commandment, then ask this person if he/she has any pictures, paintings, statues, stuffed animals, etc in their house. If they do, then yell "begone from my midst hypocrite" and shake the dust from your sandals.
I always secretly admired the Taliban - at least they had the logic to see this commandment (albeit a botched Muslim version) through to its conclusion. They may be religiopathic nutjobs, but they aren't hypocrites.
Last edited on Fri Apr 11th, 2008 12:30 pm by leofff
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http://leosfootblog.blogspot.com/
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BeProf
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 62 |
| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 12:30 pm |
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Ever heard the expression "More Catholic than the Pope?"
There are a lot of folk who try to be more Reformed than the Reformers.
I even heard one sermon from a Reformed source that condemned *R.C. Sproul* for not being Reformed enough.
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