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NanaR
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| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 175 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 07:36 pm |
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Friends:
I was talking to a Catholic friend today on the phone, and the subject scripture (Matthew 10:28) came up. He said that he heard in a lecture (by Peter Kreeft he thought) that the "him" being referred to here by Jesus is Satan, the destroyer.
In my RSV, the scripture reads:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
I tried to find some information about this scripture online. I found an article by St. Augustine that discussed Matt. 10:28 in great detail, but I did not see an identification of this "him".
I found other references online (nonCatholic) that identify the "him" as being God and state that only the Creator of the soul can destroy the soul.
Then I started to wonder if the references in 1 Corinthians 5:5 and 1 Timothy 1:20 regarding handing persons over to Satan had anything to do with this verse. Putting all three scriptures in one search, I got absolutely no Catholic commentary.
Now I'm more confused.
Help?
Thanks!!
Ruth
ps: My friend and I were discussing how best to prove the doctrine of immortality of the soul to another friend with whom I am having discussions about the Church.
Last edited on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 07:37 pm by NanaR
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1868 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 08:59 pm |
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It is definitely referring to God, because He sentences to hell, not the devil, though it probably has some secondary reference to Satan, in the sense that God permits Satan to lead people astray, based on their free will choices, that he won't override.
"Destroy" does not mean annihilation, either, but rather, "waste." I did study on this verse years ago, in my refutation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who use (as you probably know) this passage as a "proof" for annihilationism. It's also used by other groups to deny the existence of hell. Here is how I have answered that argument:
Mt 10:28: The word for "destroy" is apollumi, which means, according to Vine, "not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being." The other verses in which it appears make this meaning clear (Mt 10:6, Lk 15:6,9,24, Jn 18:9). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament or any other Greek lexicon would confirm this. Thayer was a Unitarian who probably didn't believe in hell. But he was also an honest, objective scholar, so he gave the proper meaning of apollumi, in agreement with all other Greek scholars. The same argument applies to Mt 10:39, Jn 3:16 (same word).
Also, the JWs equate "soul" with "human being" and don't accept a separate soul, but this verse teaches that a soul outlives a slain human body, and so can't be used to support their viewpoint.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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BeProf
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:24 pm |
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In Classical Greek, apollumi is also used to mean "to lay waste" or "to ruin." It's a word that implies utter defeat, dishonor, and humiliation.
When Scipio Africanus sacked Carthage, burned it to the ground, plowed the rubble over, and salted the earth so that nothing would ever grow there again... *that* was an act of apollumi.
In Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan, Khan expresses the spirit of the term nicely when he said to Captain Kirk, "I've done far worse than kill you. I've hurt you, and I wish to go on hurting you. I shall leave you as you left me... as you left her... marooned for all eternity, in the center of a dead planet, buried alive."
It is perhaps ironic, given the usage of the term in Watchtower apologetics, that the word apollumi is itself an intensification of a word that means "annihilate" or "destroy utterly." Apollumi was a word coined to describe a fate *worse* than death and what fate could possibly be worse than eternal conscious torment, separated from the love of God, enduring His well deserved wrath for all eternity?
Let us all pray that God will be merciful to ourselves and the whole world.
PS - Yes... I totally did make a Star Trek reference.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 05:37 pm |
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BeProf wrote: PS - Yes... I totally did make a Star Trek reference.
And earned our respect in doing so. I used to quote George Burns from O God, Book II in my catechism classes. There are many sources of lessons in life.
Perhaps the Catholic Church should adopt IDIC as its motto and symbol?
Live long and prosper!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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| That's wonderful exposition, Ed. Thanks! I had never thought of it in exactly that way: a fate worse than death. I'll have to remember that.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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NanaR
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jun 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 175 |
| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 05:36 pm |
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Thanks Dave!!
I kept looking at Bibliaclerus and found a homily by St. John Chrysostom (you can find it if you click on the comments for this section of Matthew). In paragraph 3, he says:
3. “Fear ye not therefore; ye are of more value than many sparrows.”18 Seest thou that the fear had already prevailed over them? Yea, for He knew the secrets of the heart; therefore He added, “Fear them not therefore;” for even should they prevail, it will be over the inferior part, I mean, the body; which though they should not kill, nature will surely take with her and depart. So that not even this depends on them, but men have it from nature. And if thou fear this, much more shouldest thou fear what is greater, and dread “Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” And He saith not openly now, that it is Himself, “Who is able to destroy both soul and body,” but where He before declared Himself to be judge, He made it manifest.
So your answer is in agreement with this Church Father, that "him" is the Lord who is the Great Judge.
When I was a Witness going from door to door, I dreaded considering this scripture with people. Even when I was a child, it seemed very plain to me that Jesus was telling us that all humans have a soul that cannot be put to death by other humans. Of course, the Watchtower had various convoluted explanations to "harmonize" this scripture with their idea that the soul dies when the body dies, but none of the "explanations" really made sense to me.
I guess I was always meant to be Catholic :-). Just took me over half a century to find that out *hah*
Pax,
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1868 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Sat Apr 12th, 2008 12:28 am |
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Better late than never, Ruth!: just like me and all the other reverts and converts.  We've found the pearl of great price.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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