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LOVECC
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| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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Hello Everyone  ,
Seems like all of the topics I start tend to revolve around things done at my parish that I am not sure are "legit".  This morning after Mass, me and my family were walking thru the hallway of the school and saw a flyer advertising a a Bible Study/talk that is going to be held at a non-denominational "once saved, always saved" church by Beth Moore (via satellite). I immediately recognized the name because my evangelical mother-in-law reads Beth Moore's studies. I am upset about this, as I don't think it is appropriate that our church would support a bible study that is not presented in accordance with Catholic teaching.
I am not really familiar with Beth Moore's bible teaching, so maybe there is no cause of concern, but I can't help but be bothered by this. Even if her teaching is "okay", it could still lead the person to end up being influenced by others in attendance. I guess my biggest issue is that, unfortunately, as we know, Catholics don't have the best reputation of being biblicly-inclined, so to speak, and that many Catholics (present company excluded, of course) don't know enough about the bible in order to determine if someone is using a passage out of context or how to defend their own faith using the bible. My concern is that the flier could interest a parishioner who then decides to attend and could possibly be swayed that the Catholic church is wrong in her teaching.
Do any of you have any thoughts regarding a Catholic church advertising bible studies at non-Catholic churches? Am I overreacting?
Please let me know your opinions. If I am overreacting, I will put the bag over my head and call it a day  .
Love,
Lisa
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 10:12 pm |
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I don't think you're overreacting, but I'm not sure what the best response is on your part. I wonder who put up the flyer.......? A subversive Protestant, enticing Catholics????
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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BodRod
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| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 10:20 pm |
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You might check with the pastor and see if the posting has been approved. In my parish, even the posters from EWTN need to go by the pastor BEFORE they are posted. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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LOVECC
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 11:17 pm |
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JillD wrote: I wonder who put up the flyer.......? A subversive Protestant, enticing Catholics????
Hi Jill,
I, too, wonder who put up the flyer. Although, it's kind of funny, because I verbalized quite loudly to my husband how I felt about it, and when we turned around to leave we realized we were standing right outside the Director of Religious Ed's office and she was sitting there and looked up at us. I don't know if she heard my rant, but I kind of hope she did 
BTW, I love your new avatar - it is very precious!
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LOVECC
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 11:20 pm |
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BodRod wrote: You might check with the pastor and see if the posting has been approved. In my parish, even the posters from EWTN need to go by the pastor BEFORE they are posted.
Hi Cliff,
I thought about approaching the pastor. My guess is, even if he didn't approve it, he wouldn't see anything wrong with it. He tends to be on the more "liberal" side of things. Although, every now and again he does surprise me with a decent homily. If I do discuss this with him, I need to think long and hard about my approach.
Thanks for your response,
Lisa
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 11:25 pm |
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LOVECC wrote: If I do discuss this with him, I need to think long and hard about my approach.
I think it would be sufficient to tell him you're familiar with Beth Moore and it makes you very uncomfortable to know that your parish is giving a "stamp of approval" to such a bible study, which might very well present teachings contrary to the Catholic faith.
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sun Jun 8th, 2008 11:44 pm |
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| Hi Lisa, Non-denominational bible studies are always a cover up for an alter call during and after the study, which is actually a "crusade". If you have a background in apologetics you might attend and and ask some questions at the appropriate time, especially about "sola scriptura" and tradition. Usually though, these "non denom bible studies" are really non denom evangilizations to fundamentalism. Questions are not encouraged. Biblical passages are cited out of context and with disregard to texts that oppose fundamentalist doctrine. Overall, they are dangerous for Catholics who are not well trained in the biblical and historical basis for catholicism.
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LOVECC
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 12:08 am |
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CajunRick wrote: I think it would be sufficient to tell him you're familiar with Beth Moore and it makes you very uncomfortable to know that your parish is giving a "stamp of approval" to such a bible study, which might very well present teachings contrary to the Catholic faith.
Short, sweet and to the point - I like it 
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LOVECC
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 12:11 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote:
Overall, they are dangerous for Catholics who are not well trained in the biblical and historical basis for catholicism.
Hi Ted - That is exactly my concern. I am just fearful that my pastor won't see it that way. Oh well, I guess my responsibility is to bring my concern to him regardless of his reaction - at least I do my part.
Now, pray that I gather the courage, as I do not like confrontation.
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.
-Lisa
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 04:20 pm |
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This is not a good policy at all to have such a flier at a Catholic church. Technically, even a Catholic book that is on display at a Catholic parish, is supposed to have the Imprimatur. That's for Catholic stuff, so a Protestant meeting is a no-no, for sure.
Catholics have to be very careful in general about such meetings. If we don't know our faith, we're open prey to be taken in by Protestant arguments (and friendliness, too often lacking in Catholic circles). If we do know our faith and can defend it, and have a broad knowledge of Protestantism, then it can be an opportunity to (gently, politely, respecting the environment) share our faith in that context.
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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Why, how could anybody come out against sweet -smiling Beth and ascribe to her any ulterior motives. When you see her posters, that's exactly the message she and her handlers tried to create when they pulled this course together. I'm sure our own speakers and their study programs try to be inviting as well. It's hard to get people worked up for fire n' brimestone these days.
Not only that, when a person's bible study is geared towards producing generic, and preferably non-denominational "Bible Christians" it doesn't register with them in the least that they've crossed a clear line. The line doesn't exist. And if you point it out, even in the politest terms, get ready for a slight--if you're lucky--display of umbrage. It'll be real and so will the hurt feelings, not to mention any false impression they'll take away that we Catholics are "too defensive." Good luck trying to explain why we have reasons for being defensive. The "truth and nothing but the whole truth" of Catholicism isn't something we can afford to lightly fluff over just for the sake of being polite.
However, what's so "polite" about sheep stealing, encroachment and enticing people to pay good money to join what's really nothing but a tool to increase evangelical ranks? There's nothing "polite" or "friendly" about it and the saddest thing for these women, who probably are well-meaning, albeit naive, is that while they honestly want to create more believers like them in this smiley happy world of merest basic Christianity--they're unwittingly doing the devil's work by spreading more disunity.
You'll know how truly sincere they are about your spiritual well-being if they back off if you invite them to one of our functions. You'll know real fast!
(What amazes me is how destructive women's bible studies can be when the squabbles begin over who gets to lead them and coincidence of coincidences occurs -- it's the pastor's dearie.) It's been known to make even the bravest pastors' knees tremble for thinking of the storm to follow.
Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 07:40 pm by Steven Barrett
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TotusTuus
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Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 07:56 pm |
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LOVECC wrote: I, too, wonder who put up the flyer. Although, it's kind of funny, because I verbalized quite loudly to my husband how I felt about it, and when we turned around to leave we realized we were standing right outside the Director of Religious Ed's office and she was sitting there and looked up at us. I don't know if she heard my rant, but I kind of hope she did
I think you will have better success if you address the Parish Staff directly, instead of indirectly indicating that you are displeased. Assume that they are helpful and impartial and ready to do their job to correct the situation. If you later find they are incompetent, then consider moving to another parish...
Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 07:57 pm by TotusTuus
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 10:12 am |
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LOVECC wrote: This morning after Mass, me and my family were walking thru the hallway of the school and saw a flyer advertising a a Bible Study/talk
I probably would have just quietly removed it when no one else was looking
Ali
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 11:17 am |
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And nobody but us chickens on the forum would've probably noticed!
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LOVECC
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 03:59 pm |
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Ali wrote:
I probably would have just quietly removed it when no one else was looking
Ali
LOL! Believe me, I was tempted and still am!
I don't know why, but I am so nervous about approaching the pastor on this. It's probably because he knows me! He was nice enough to allow my brother to concelebrate at my son's First Communion this year. Talk about small worlds, but my dad butted heads with him when he (my dad) taught 2nd grade CCD back when my pastor was a new priest at the parish I was baptized at. So, maybe, that is where my fear lies.
Is it disrespectful to bring this to his attention via email or should I do it face to face? I wouldn't make the email anonymous, so he would still know that it is me, but that way I can collect my thoughts and be sure that I don't come across confrontational.
UGH!
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JillD
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 05:23 pm |
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Whenever I have to do stuff like this, I always try to put the onus on my own failings, not in a dishonest way, but to allow for there to be a more gracious exchange rather than a contentious one - - - and I can be the queen of contention, so it takes effort on my part to try to find a better way.
You COULD say, "This is a Protestant Bible study and doesn't belong in the Catholic Church."
OR....
You could say, "I'm a little confused by the Church offering this study as I know it's taught from a Protestant perspective. I know if I were to attend this study, based on what I know about it and Beth Moore, I think it would confuse my beliefs as a Catholic. Can I share with you what I know about it?"
Or....
I'm sure others could come up with even more gracious ways to begin the conversation.
Be sure to pray before you go and say as little as possible....
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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LOVECC
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Posted: Tue Jun 10th, 2008 08:25 pm |
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Thanks, Jill! I'll definitely follow your advice and use "me" language and not "you" language so as to avoid an accusatory tone - good thinking 
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 02:49 pm |
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This thread brings up the question of why bible study isn't given more importance in the CC. IMHO one of the great gifts of having trod the protestant path thus far is that through reading the bible I have come to know the depth of God's love, the strength that He provides us, the guidance we can confidently expect from Him, etc.
A personal knowledge of the Bible has given me personal assurance about my relationship with God and about His character that nobody can rob me of. It seems to me that if bible study were a regular part of the life of the Church there would be more Catholics who could give a reason for the hope that is within them, and fewer who would fall away from the Church.
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Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 03:38 pm |
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left coast mystic wrote:
This thread brings up the question of why bible study isn't given more importance in the CC. IMHO one of the great gifts of having trod the protestant path thus far is that through reading the bible I have come to know the depth of God's love, the strength that He provides us, the guidance we can confidently expect from Him, etc.
A personal knowledge of the Bible has given me personal assurance about my relationship with God and about His character that nobody can rob me of. It seems to me that if bible study were a regular part of the life of the Church there would be more Catholics who could give a reason for the hope that is within them, and fewer who would fall away from the Church.
Marcee, You have hit upon one of my biggest issues. My greatest growth has come from the in depth Bible studies I've had both in my private life as well as in the teachings in the churches I have grown up in. When Catholics say that "Yes, but in the Catholic Church you get the 'fullness' of the truth. I'll be honest and simply say I have a hard time understanding how much more full can one get? If God the Holy Spirit has brought life to my spirit through the work of grace, hence the Trinity dwells within me, how much fuller can one get? I realize the Eucharist is supposed to be the Body and Blood of Christ, but that's a statement of faith. There is nothing wrong with that. I have the fullness of the Godhead in me by faith as well and there is nothing in Catholic teaching that I can find that contradicts that. I'm a "separated brother" (in Catholic terms) because I haven't entered the Catholic church. But I'm still recognized as a brother.
What I miss in today's Protestant church is the heightened sense of holiness and worship we once enjoyed. That's what draws me to the Catholic church.
But after months of reading books and this site, I haven't seen anything which convinces me that Catholics have anything deeper than what I have.
Now I know this will draw down the consternation of those with whom I've developed friendships. Be rest assured, I desire unity of the faith. I wish we were all one church. That is one of the reasons I am exploring the Catholic Church. I have joined, along with a host of other active Protestants, in lifting up the teachings of the church fathers as valid expressions of belief and faith. We should be one with them.
But so far as having "fullness" of faith? Jesus is so precious to me that sometimes I'm overwhelmed with his goodness and love. I have met very few Catholics who are as overwhelmed with the Scriptures despite the abundance of readings in their services and daily worship. But then, I haven't run into many of the kind of wonderful people on this site either who are Catholics. I have worked daily with hundreds of Catholics over the years and have not met one who expresses their faith as heartily as those on this site and those associated with EWTN. And don't give me that "Catholics don't express their faith openly as Protestants hogwash. (That ought to bring Dave out of the bushes to say something) If anything I've learned from the Sermon on the Mount, for instance is that faith is expressed outwardly by loving exchanges with anyone we come in contact with. Faith is no faith unless it is expressed outwardly. I know, I know...what is outwardly? That is another subject.
Well, I've exposed my right flank so I'd better go back into the shadows.
God bless ya'll. I really do love you. And I really am drawn to the Catholic church. But, as far as fullness goes? I have it despite your Protestations.
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sewnsew
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 04:45 pm |
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My feelings on the matter are: My in laws who attend a Southern Baptist Church and go to Sunday school as well have the Bible memorized- I don't . Once I asked them what they went to church for and their response was "fellowship and worship"- I asked my kids what they think that we went to church for -the answer, worship, fellowship wasn't even a blip on their radar. As far as rote prayers go- my inlaws doubt the sincerity of any memrized prayer but fail to recognize that their spontanious prayers follow a pretty set pattern with phrases that are pretty stock to me. you are so right that Catholics are essentially lazy about really learning our faith the same way that protestants do, however Catholics do have an ingrained sense of what the church stands on but becuase sharing the faith and evangelizing has not been emphasized they do not have any practice at all in verbalizing their faith. We used to play a game around the table we called toastmasters- because our son had speech issues- we would thow out a topic ask one person to speak for a minute or what ever etc. We followed the real Toastmaster guidlines. When we started my kids could hardly fill their minute- now we are up to two minutes and boy they can fill them at the drop of a hat- most protestants are actively trained in how to share their faith. What the protestant church lacks no matter how respectfully they serve communion is the real presence- growing up Anglican, that communion was very important to me- huge in fact. Once I started reading and I started having doubts that the real presence could be in the commnion service i felt almost betrayed or tricked- I definately felt and feel that my Anglican service was like playing house vs actually living my life as a mom, wife etc in a real house. So you are very right- protestants can and do feel the love of Christ, can be filled with the Holy Spirit but you are missing the one crucial piece- The Eucharist and as long as there is any doubt in a person's mind that there is more to the Eucharist then just a memorial meal then they won't miss this last piece- once a person is convicted that the real presence of Our Lord is in the Eucharist they they will not be satisfied until they can partake.. You are right that Catholics fail miserably at sharing their faith but it is lack of training not lack of faith- you may feel that that is just an excuse but in all honesty it is a true lack- very few Catholic parishes have the kind of Bible studies that Protestants have and Catholics don't have that subtle ( or not so) pressure to attend Bible studies etc. Also the nondenominational inter church Bible studies that so many Protestants attend are not really a good fit for Catholics the same way- no matter how open they seem on the surface there will be a lot less in common with the Catholic than with other Protestants-I answered a trivia question on our local Christian Radio station about the how many books there were in the Bible and was told that I was wrong becuase the "aprocrypha" were not really officially part of the Bible- so a Catholic shows up to a non denominational study and the first thing that will happen is that they have to obtain a Protestant version of the Bible to participate easily
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 05:25 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote:
What the protestant church lacks no matter how respectfully they serve communion is the real presence- growing up Anglican, that communion was very important to me- huge in fact. Once I started reading and I started having doubts that the real presence could be in the commnion service i felt almost betrayed or tricked- I definately felt and feel that my Anglican service was like playing house vs actually living my life as a mom, wife etc in a real house. So you are very right- protestants can and do feel the love of Christ, can be filled with the Holy Spirit but you are missing the one crucial piece- The Eucharist and as long as there is any doubt in a person's mind that there is more to the Eucharist then just a memorial meal then they won't miss this last piece- once a person is convicted that the real presence of Our Lord is in the Eucharist they they will not be satisfied until they can partake.. You are right that Catholics fail miserably at sharing their faith but it is
I appreciate your tenderness and faith Lisa. But...just how full is full? If I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and by Baptism made one with Christ, I have the Trinity in me. How much more full can I be? Full is full. Now, I agree, I must work out my salvation on a daily basis, but so do you. I'm full if Christ is in me. I'm full if I partake in the Eucharist. Just how more full than full can you be? I'm not debating but really asking an important question. By faith I receive Christ and the entire trinity. By faith, you receive the Eucharist in body. We are both still full. We both have the living breathing loving presence of God in us. They are both an act of grace.
But you see I'm not sure that is the issue here. I don't really think this is the argument. I think someone will pop up and say, but the tradition teaches that we must be obedient and accept the Eucharist. Or some such thought.
Maybe so. In fact, I'll go so far as to say, yes, the Eucharist is the body, soul and divinity of Christ.
But....BUT..., perhaps the truth may have become a legal practice as the church became a monolithic institution, just as circumcision, which was the mark of the child of God to the Jews and became a meaningless regulation. God then reached out to the rest of the world to bring men and women to himself and by his grace brought us to himself through what he had to work with in flawed human nature. The need for the Eucharist may have never gone away, but God in his grace overcame the Protestant theologians and continued to make himself available in a manner just as meaningful by the simple faith of people who trusted in him. Now don't ask me to provide scripture for that because I'm searching my brain for the right thoughts.
God grace is wide and merciful. He wants to fill us with himself and bring the kingdom of God down here. The good news is the kingdom is here and it is in the hearts of those who put their love and trust in Christ and live in obedience to him.
So I ask again...how full is full. If my cup is full and overflowing there is no capacity for anymore.
Well, I've spent too much work time on this and St. Escriva would get on my case.
So be kind everyone.
Rich
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 05:36 pm |
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LOVECC wrote: Ali wrote:
I probably would have just quietly removed it when no one else was looking
Ali
LOL! Believe me, I was tempted and still am!
I don't know why, but I am so nervous about approaching the pastor on this. It's probably because he knows me! He was nice enough to allow my brother to concelebrate at my son's First Communion this year. Talk about small worlds, but my dad butted heads with him when he (my dad) taught 2nd grade CCD back when my pastor was a new priest at the parish I was baptized at. So, maybe, that is where my fear lies.
Is it disrespectful to bring this to his attention via email or should I do it face to face? I wouldn't make the email anonymous, so he would still know that it is me, but that way I can collect my thoughts and be sure that I don't come across confrontational.
UGH!
I know it is easier said than done sometimes, but we have to remember the - humm dark side of the force  if you are a Star Wars fan - likes to make things seem impossible. THANK GOD, with our God, all things are possible.
Philippians 4: 13
I have strength for all things
Through Christ who empowers me
I’m ready for anything that comes my way
Even what I may not foresee
For it is Christ who infuses me
Strengthening me in His might
And I am sufficient in His sufficiency
With the power of Christ inside
By M.S.Lowndes
http://www.heavensinspirations.com/scripture-poetry.html
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 887 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 05:40 pm |
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I guess bottom line you are as full as you can experience with the knowledge you presnetly have- perhaps if you become Catholic and partake of the Eucharist you will look back and think "wow I thought I had the fullness of Spirit but now I know I didn't" Hindsight is always 20 20 and therefore today is always the the most that you knew/felt whatever- until tomorrow comes and you find there is more. i am not gifted with words so this problably could have been said better by many of the people on the list. I am just saying that until I knew what the Church taught i thought that I was filled with the Holy Spirit and came out of Church on Sundays thinking that I had fully partaken of Commuion but then looking back I now know that there was more-much more
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