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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 04:13 pm |
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Hello CH Family,
What would be considered the most reliable and accurate Catholic translation of the Bible? I have an NAB, but am not all that fond of it. Any other suggestions out there?
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 04:38 pm |
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Darlene wrote: What would be considered the most reliable and accurate Catholic translation of the Bible? I have an NAB, but am not all that fond of it. Any other suggestions out there?
The Vatican uses the RSV-CE.
Ignatius Press has released the RSV-CE 2nd Edition which features updated language. There are rumblings from Rome that when the Lectionary is revised, it will be based on this translation. (That may not be until the next decade, so don't hold your breath.) It is currently the only unmodified English translation permitted for lectionary use anywhere in the world. It is a faithful translation and does not use inclusive language.
You can find the paperback edition here. Links to the leather and hardcover editions are on that page.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 07:13 pm |
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Rick,
Is this RSV version similar to the RSV version published for many years by the American Bible Society? I ask because the RSV version (without the Catholic books) is the one that I have grown up on. I read it regularly and have memorized scripture from this version. I was very disappointed when the ABS decided not to print it anymore. The New RSV is horrible. (liberal and gender neutral in places)
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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JillD
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Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 07:51 pm |
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| The new ESV (English Standard Version) is based on the RSV but it's more orthodox. It's beautiful to read with a wonderful balance of being true to the original language and yet readable. Unfortunately, the publishers sound pretty adamant about not making a Catholic edition....:?
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 08:52 pm |
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Darlene wrote: Is this RSV version similar to the RSV version published for many years by the American Bible Society? I ask because the RSV version (without the Catholic books) is the one that I have grown up on. I read it regularly and have memorized scripture from this version. I was very disappointed when the ABS decided not to print it anymore. The New RSV is horrible. (liberal and gender neutral in places)
The RSV-CE is the original RSV with the edition of the Catholic books. It is still being published by Ignatius Press and others.
The RSV-CE 2nd Edition is not the NRSV. It is a revision of the original RSV-CE. It is not published by the ABS, although I'm sure it has their approval since they hold the copyright.
The RSV-CE2 is strongly recommended by Catholic Answers, Scott Hahn, and most other orthodox Catholic sources. This tract from CA recommends the otiginal RSV-CE but it came out before the RSV-CE2.
Dr. Hahn's recommendations are here, but again, this was done before the RSV-CE2 was published. Also, the RSV-CE2 is not available online, and this is an online reference page.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Mar 5th, 2007 11:12 pm |
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Darlene, I was introduced to the Protestant edition of the RSV while I was still a Methodist, back in my youth. I’ve used the original Catholic edition of the RSV for many years. Recently I purchased the RSV-CE2, and it is, if anything, even better, because it removes the archaisms but also refreshes the ear with a slight traditional touch, such as returning to the reading “a virgin shall conceive” in Isaiah 7:14 instead of “a young woman shall conceive.” I think you will like it.
Some Catholics denigrate the RSV-CE because of its Protestant lineage. I don’t. Say what you will, it is the most accurate bible out there for English speaking Catholics. The closest runner-up is probably the original (1972) Jerusalem Bible, and it is too free to be used for anything but devotional reading.
I agree with you on the NRSV. I have it in a digitized version, but I never use it for more than comparison. I almost always use the original RSV-CE, which I have in my personal database, for quoting bible verses on this forum and in my private correspondence. On the rare occasions when I choose something else, it is usually the Douay-Rheims-Challoner version. This from someone who has more than two dozen different translations in his library.
The US bishops have stuck with their own private project, the NAB, for decades. It still has not passed muster in Rome. I liken it to the bishops’ long-suffering cable TV project, which was finally killed a few years ago when it was clear that they had botched it yet another time. EWTN, privately owned and operated, has become the de facto monopoly as well as the standard for orthodoxy. I see Ignatius Press doing the same thing in the field of print.
It is my belief and hope that we will see better English language bibles in the decades to come. But I will probably not live to see them come off the press.
David
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 08:12 am |
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I have a Catholic Youth Bible - NRSV. {shrug} I like it. I never noticed the liberal or gender neutral things about it. Ack! What's that say for me  LOL
Anyway, I like the CYB and how I can relate to some of the studies, meditations, and extra info provided in it. My DRE suggested it to me. It is the only Catholic Bible I own.
Ali
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JasPax
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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I have the NAB because it is available in very large print, but I don't care for it. Example: notes for Matt.21,4-5 state that Matthew made a mistake in this passage. Ugh!
Another example: The notes for Rev. 12 do not mention Mary. And this is a Catholic Bible?
I just purchased the RSV-2 CE and like it very much but the print is too small for these old eyes. Any chance Ignatius Press will come out with a large print edition?
Thanks
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 01:22 pm |
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JasPax wrote: Any chance Ignatius Press will come out with a large print edition?
Write to them and ask for it. They are a commercial business (even though I believe they are not-for-profit) and will respond to customer requests. You can write to them at info@ignatius.com.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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JasPax
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 02:16 pm |
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Thanks. I'll ask them and will publish their answer. I have macular degeneration that resulted in the need for a couple of laser zaps to stop retinal bleeders. (one in each eye) I have new respect for little children with reading problems like dyslexia.
Not complaining though. Thank God for modern medicine.
God Bless!
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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Christine Ann
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 02:54 pm |
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Rick,
Thanks for your referral. I also used the RSV growing up. Didn't know they had a Catholic Edition. Now I can have my beloved Psalm 23 as I remember it.
I've placed my order!
Christine Ann
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 03:47 pm |
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Christine Ann wrote: Now I can have my beloved Psalm 23 as I remember it.
Here Psalm 23 from the RSV-CE2:
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want; he makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters; he restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the sight of my enemies; you anoint my head wtih oil, my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
So as you can see, the only difference is that the Thees and Thous have been replaced with more contemporary pronouns, and "Thou preparest" is replaced with "You prepare". It is literally the same translation brought up to date.
For comparison, here is the original RSV translation:
The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want; he makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters; he restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my head with oil, my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Christine Ann
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 05:57 pm |
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Thank you, Rick. The RSV version of the 23rd Psalm is the one I memorized as a child. But I like the RSV-CE. It stays true to the original RSV and updates it just a bit. I like that, although I'll probably always remember the RSV version. But it's so good to know the RSV was used in the Catholic version. I can't wait until I get my copy!
Christine Ann
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 6th, 2007 06:32 pm |
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Christine Ann wrote: Thank you, Rick. The RSV version of the 23rd Psalm is the one I memorized as a child. But I like the RSV-CE. It stays true to the original RSV and updates it just a bit. I like that, although I'll probably always remember the RSV version. But it's so good to know the RSV was used in the Catholic version. I can't wait until I get my copy!
Keep in mind that the revisions you note are part of the RSV-CE2, not the original RSV-CE. The original RSV-CE is virtually identical to the original RSV, including the archaic language.
I just don't want you to get the RSV-CE thinking it will be the 2nd edition and it isn't. Currently only Ignatius Press and I think one other publisher is producing the RSV-CE2, but they also publish the original RSV-CE. If you want the updated language, be sure to look for "2nd Edition".
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 05:39 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: Christine Ann wrote: Thank you, Rick. The RSV version of the 23rd Psalm is the one I memorized as a child. But I like the RSV-CE. It stays true to the original RSV and updates it just a bit. I like that, although I'll probably always remember the RSV version. But it's so good to know the RSV was used in the Catholic version. I can't wait until I get my copy!
Keep in mind that the revisions you note are part of the RSV-CE2, not the original RSV-CE. The original RSV-CE is virtually identical to the original RSV, including the archaic language.
Rick, this is great news! I love the RSV and have several versions of it. But now to be able to get it with the Catholic books included is simply wonderful. I must let my Protestant brothers and sisters know about this. So many of them love the RSV and were sorely disappointed when the ABS stopped printing it and went to the NRSV.
. Currently only Ignatius Press and I think one other publisher is producing the RSV-CE2, but they also publish the original RSV-CE. If you want the updated language, be sure to look for "2nd Edition".
So where can I get this RSV-CE version other than through Ignatius Press. Do you have Ignatius Press address or some way I can get in touch with them through email or phone? Also, do many Catholic bookstores sell this version?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Christine Ann
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Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 08:40 pm |
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Hello Rick,
I purchased the RSV-CE not the new one. So that makes me even happier...that it's identical. And I'm used to the archaic language;don't mind it at all. I am excited to get my copy!
Thanks again for the reference.
Christine Ann
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Mar 7th, 2007 09:53 pm |
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Darlene, the original RSV-CE is published by Scepter Publishers as well as Ignatius Press. The Second Edition (which most of us have been calling RSV-CE2 in this thread) is available only from Ignatius Press.
David
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 01:49 pm |
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Folks - For what it's worth, when it comes to reading a much more dignified and formal version of the Bible, (and also sometimes using it in my writings) the Douai-Rheims Vulgate published in paperback does the job handsomely.
Insofar as having a handy version (to settle "discussions") a NIV will do just fine, except, of course, for the missing "Catholic" chapters.
I do have one question concerning the Douai-Rheim version. I noticed that the Good Shepherd Psalm is listed as the 22nd instead of the more commonly known "23rd Psalm." Why is that? Having this info will save me a lot of aggravation and perhaps some embarrassment at the hands of my Protestant friends who would love to tease me unmercifully. "What! Isn't it bad enough that you Catholics don't even look at a Bible except on a very blue - no, make it a COBALT BLUE moon - and now your editors couldn't even count the Psalms!" (And these folks aren't even SOUTHERN Baptists. They're the more moderate Northern variety.
Another question, and I suppose nobody outside the inner editorial offices of EWTN, Ignatius Press and even the Bishops Kremlin in Washington have a clue as to why the NAB came out the sorry way it did. The "Dick and Jane" primers I read in St. Mary's Elementary out in Cheyenne, WY (back in the Ike Age) were, excuse me, are, more interesting than the NAB production that might well have been something created out of a bunch of parish liturgical committee dominated by Kumbaya Katholics. Even what's printed on the backs of cereal boxes is more interesting.
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 20th, 2007 03:24 pm |
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Steven Barrett wrote: I do have one question concerning the Douai-Rheim version. I noticed that the Good Shepherd Psalm is listed as the 22nd instead of the more commonly known "23rd Psalm." Why is that?
Just a different method of numbering the psalms. David will have the precise information (he knows everything) but you'll notice one of the psalms in the Douey-Rheims (9) is split into two (9 & 10) in other versions, and a later psalm in the other versions (147) is split in the D/R (146-147). So they both end up with 150, but most of them are numbered differently.
New Advent has an article on the numbering from the Catholic Encyclopedia.
Another question, and I suppose nobody outside the inner editorial offices of EWTN, Ignatius Press and even the Bishops Kremlin in Washington have a clue as to why the NAB came out the sorry way it did. The "Dick and Jane" primers I read in St. Mary's Elementary out in Cheyenne, WY (back in the Ike Age) were, excuse me, are, more interesting than the NAB production that might well have been something created out of a bunch of parish liturgical committee dominated by Kumbaya Katholics. Even what's printed on the backs of cereal boxes is more interesting.
OK, so what's the question?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Mar 21st, 2007 10:48 am |
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| Sorry -I put too much background flavor into my inquiry about the NAB. I should've left it at why is the book so bland. And, thanks for the information about the 22nd Psalm.
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 06:22 pm |
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cajunrick wrote:David will have the precise information (he knows everything)
I don’t claim to be God, so I also don’t claim to know everything.
Steven Barrett wrote:I do have one question.… [give or take a few]
Steven, the background on the difference between the numbering of the Douay Psalms and their numbering in Protestant bibles (plus most recent Catholic bibles) is the same thing that brought about the shorter Protestant canon: there are two literary traditions. The traditional Christian canon, which encompasses the 72 books recognized by Catholics and Orthodox (that’s two thirds to three quarters of all Christians, depending on who’s doing the tally), has an Old Testament canon descended from the ancient Greek Septuagint version of about 200 BC. The 66 book Protestant canon is instead based on the Palestinian Jewish Hebrew canon first advocated about 100 AD and definitively codified about the 8th century.
There were some pre-Christian differences in the divisions of the Psalms between the Palestinian Jews (Aramaic speaking, advocating the Hebrew language scriptures alone) and the Jews of the Diaspora (Greek speaking, advocating a more inclusive Greek canon as exemplified by the Septuagint). The Douay-Rheims version of the bible follows the Latin Vulgate, which in its turn follows the Septuagint. The result is the difference you have noted and Rick has explained. Since the Second Vatican Council, most editions of the bible (apart from the traditional Douay-Rheims and the older versions in other languages) have gone over to the Hebrew/Protestant numbering system. Even the Vatican’s updated Latin version, the Novus Vulgatus (1979), uses it, so I think this is the way things are going to be. It puts us in synch with both the Protestants and the Jews, but out of synch with the Orthodox, many of whom still adhere to the Septuagint numbering.
Now, second question, why is the NAB so bland? The following is my personal opinion only. Let us not confuse it with a scholarly treatment. Some on the forum may disagree with me, and that’s all right. My ideas are not magisterial. And as mentioned above, I don’t claim to know everything, in spite of what Rick may think.
The NAB’s literary style is very “contemporary casual.” That is one strike against it. There is no sense of dignity and reverence.
A second strike would be its intentional ambiguity and vagueness. The scholars who worked on it (this was before the Vatican-mandated reorganization of the International Commission on English in the Liturgy, or ICEL, which is the official translating body for our country’s liturgical and biblical texts) had a viewpoint that differed significantly with that of the Vatican, and they were forced to redo the text to get it to pass muster. They preferred to resort to ambiguity and vagueness, instead of actual correction, to cover over most of the rough spots, since it allowed dissidents to interpret the various passages in ways that suited them.
Still, what we have in the present text (apart from an off-the-wall rendition of the Psalms, which the Vatican still rejects; this is now the third version to be called the New American Bible) is much more literal and accurate than the first and second versions of the NAB. I have a copy of the original version of the NAB Old Testament, and it is an impossible jumble of paraphrase, creative writing and re-ordering of verses according to the then-popular historical-critical method of biblical interpretation. It is also still in use as the English text for the scriptural readings in the Liturgy of the Hours, which was last revised in the 1970s.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 06:47 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: cajunrick wrote:David will have the precise information (he knows everything)
I don’t claim to be God, so I also don’t claim to know everything.
Close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 11:37 am |
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Cajunrick,
Don't leave out the MOABs, Daisy Cutters and nukes. They're more effective than grenades or shoes. Lots of collatoral damage, or as the military would call it, "incontinent ordinance".
"Incontinent ordinance" does a great job of describing the garbage thrown at the Church from some of our "colleagues" in the Fourth Estate -- especially when it comes to "dissidence." After reading David's explanation about the NAB or (nuthin' in the american "bible") I couldn't help wondering if the stolen sheep's common whine about "not hearing the Bible" may not be all that inaccurate. Well, at least they got "something," even if it was scripture's equal to powdered skim milk. (Certainly not even close to "near beer.")
Here's another question: why did so many liberal Catholics -- lay and clerics and lay religious who should've been more awake at the wheel -- suffer from Ratzinger Derangement Syndrome (RDS) during his so-called "Reign of Terror" as the Torquemada of the Times when they were able to keep the NAB and its lectionary cousin "on the books" for official reading?
Or, maybe they were clever enough to raise so much hell through their affliction with RDS to divert our attention to this fake dissent whilst they managed to sneakily manage to establish the bland books as Tradition we -- the great unwashed, spiritually retrograde and politically uncorrect -- proles must pay heed to.
Now that former Panzerkardinal Inquisitor Ratzinger is now Pope Benedict XVI, it'll be fun to watch the changes -- hopefully he'll live much longer and remain intellectually & administratively powerful enough to rein in his American shepherds so that their flock will once again get real food.
After Pius IX ended his long reign, Leo XIII was supposed to be a "transitionary" pope, much to the chagrin of both capitalists, communists and spiritual liberals. They thought'd he'd never die.
Alas, though, while "Good Pope" John XXIII was indeed "transitory," we're still paying for the transistions he let loose. Benedict would agree.
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For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 200 | | | |
