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birdstrike Member
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| First Name: | Birdstrike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Science - Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 01:54 am |
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Hello Experts:
I am part of an RCIA team, and one of our catechumens expressed that the part in which the congregation shouts "Crucify Him" was extremely painful to her. We spent quite some time explaining why this is done, and I'm confident that she understands, but she would still like to know where this came from.
At what point did this enter the Palm Sunday liturgy? Vatican II? Or does it go farther back? I'm a convert so my Catholic memory doesn't go back that far. Thanks,
Birdstrike
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 02:00 am |
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birdstrike wrote: Hello Experts:
I am part of an RCIA team, and one of our catechumens expressed that the part in which the congregation shouts "Crucify Him" was extremely painful to her. We spent quite some time explaining why this is done, and I'm confident that she understands, but she would still like to know where this came from.
At what point did this enter the Palm Sunday liturgy? Vatican II? Or does it go farther back? I'm a convert so my Catholic memory doesn't go back that far. Thanks,
It comes from scripture, so it has been part of the liturgy for an extremely long time (a millinneum? More?). However, the concept of a "dialogue" reading of scripture came about after Vatican II. It is not mandatory, but because of the length of the reading, a dramatization makes it easier to follow. It also adds to the drama. Other readings can also be done in a dialogue format, but I doubt of most parishes do so. I remember a lectionary produced quite a while back that had dialogue versions of every reading. It quickly went out of print.
As for the phrase, "Crucify him!" the intention is to show that it is indeed all of our sins that nailed Christ to the cross. It was not the Jews who condemned him, but all of us. Every time we sin, we hit the nail with the hammer one more time.
Painful? Let's hope so.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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birdstrike Member
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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 02:17 am |
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So it's post-Vatican II. I guess this makes sense, given our 20th century fluency in Latin. Thanks, I'll tell our catechumen!
If anyone else might have further info on the source of this practice, feel free to chime in!
Birdstrike
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BodRod Member

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 01:03 pm |
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birdstrike wrote: that the part in which the congregation shouts "Crucify Him"
I too, do not like that part of the service. In fact, I am so uncomfortable with those words that I do not say them. I just stand there quietly.
____________________ Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 02:45 pm |
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I did some more research, and found this bulletin from the U. S. Bishops. It reads in part:
Following the Second Vatican Council, popular participation aids were developed in magazine formats to promote the effective participation of all the faithful in the liturgy. These aids were particularly helpful in facilitating participation in the rites of the Sacred Triduum, which due to their unique structure and complexity, required careful guidance.
Part of this laudable pastoral initiative involved the division of the proclamation of the Passio in parts. A precedent for this practice was found in the Passio which was solemnly sung by three sacred ministers. Unlike the traditional sung Passion, however, the newly developed Passion was divided into four parts, the new part being assigned to the entire assembly of the faithful. To the congregation present was given the collective parts of observers, witnesses to the trial and death of Jesus, and "the crowd" which surrounded him during his Passion.
So the tradition is that the Passion was sung by three priests or deacons with the parts of Narrator, Christ, and Others; this was adapted after Vatican II into a four-part narration with single speakers separated from the "crowd".
There is a warning that assigning the phrase "Crucify him" to the congregation not be seen as a condemnation of the Jewish people as responsible for the crucifixion, and that participation does not prevent the congregation from properly receiving the proclaimed Gospel.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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mrsbill Member

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 10:15 pm |
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So the tradition is that the Passion was sung by three priests or deacons with the parts of Narrator, Christ, and Others...
Is the narration always sung? I found it difficult to follow with the singing/chanting of it. A narration without singing would have been easier to follow. I'm still getting used to all this.
I just wondered if all Catholic churches did it that same way?
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 10:58 pm |
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mrsbill wrote: Is the narration always sung? I found it difficult to follow with the singing/chanting of it. A narration without singing would have been easier to follow. I'm still getting used to all this.
No, it is very seldom sung today. That was the tradition before the revisions of the liturgy after Vatican II, and it is still an option, but it's been my experience that it is most often read in multiple parts, with the words of the crowd and unidentified speakers read aloud by the congregation.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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mrsbill Member

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 11:15 pm |
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No, it is very seldom sung today. That was the tradition before the revisions of the liturgy after Vatican II, and it is still an option, but it's been my experience that it is most often read in multiple parts, with the words of the crowd and unidentified speakers read aloud by the congregation.
Interesting. In ours the part of Jesus was sung by the Priest, the narrator was sung by a male member of the choir, I believe, and the crowd/unidentified was sung by a female member of the choir. I personally would have prefered it been read, not sung.
The congregation didn't participate at all.
We have a new Priest and I noticed that some of the things that used to just be said/read (prayers, etc) are now being sung instead. I wonder if that is something that he prefers, thus the changes?
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 11:25 pm |
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mrsbill wrote: We have a new Priest and I noticed that some of the things that used to just be said/read (prayers, etc) are now being sung instead. I wonder if that is something that he prefers, thus the changes?
Chances are he is a more conservative, traditionalist priest. Strangely enough, many younger priests are much more traditionalist than older priests. I know several younger priests who don't like girl altar servers, sing more of the mass parts, discourage Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, etc. Many of them will mellow with age.
In many of the Eastern Churches, the entire Divine Liturgy is chanted, including the readings. Pope Benedict recently encouraged an increased use of chant in the mass in the Latin Church as well.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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mrsbill Member

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Posted: Thu Apr 5th, 2007 11:36 pm |
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Chances are he is a more conservative, traditionalist priest. Strangely enough, many younger priests are much more traditionalist than older priests. I know several younger priests who don't like girl altar servers, sing more of the mass parts, discourage Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, etc. Many of them will mellow with age.
Actually, he is an older gentleman. We do have girl alter servers (but have for a while I'm sure) and we do have Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. The only thing that has changed is he has added a Monday 8 am service, so now there is an 8 am service on all 5 weekdays and more chant/song to the literugy. I guess I will just need to get used to it. It shouldn't be too hard to get acustomed to.
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birdstrike Member
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 08:09 pm |
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Thank you everyone, and especially you cajunrick for the link to the bulletin. That's exactly what our catechumen soon-to-be-Catholic person wants to know. Have a Blessed Easter,
Birdstrike
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CajunRick Network Helper

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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 08:22 pm |
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birdstrike wrote: Thank you
Glad we could help.
____________________ Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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