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prairie
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| First Name: | prairie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Church of Christ, CREC, Catholic (RCIA) |
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Posted: Wed Apr 25th, 2007 12:12 pm |
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I recently was told by my Reformed pastor that the early church practiced corporate confession rather than individual confession. Is there evidence that he is right or wrong? In particular, are there quotes from the Fathers on this?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 09:08 am |
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I would consider this a half truth. There is evidence of individual confession and, more especially, imposition of penance and absolution before the entire congregation, but not “corporate confession” properly so called, wherein the entire congregation would acknowledge its faults in a non-specific manner.
The current form of private confession, absolution and imposition of penance developed over a number of centuries and was not universally practiced in the Church before later medieval times. The earlier practices still required the same basic steps, but they were ordered differently. In particular, in the early Church the penance was imposed and served before absolution was given. Absolution and reconciliation with the congregation of the faithful was a public rite. And in some cases, the initial confession of sins was done in public rather than in private. Since the validity of the sacrament requires that the individual be as specific as possible regarding the kind of sin and its frequency, it is obvious that except in cases of extreme urgency (such as danger of death, or the physical inability of the penitent to speak), absolution cannot be given without individual confession. For grave sins, a non-specific corporate cannot suffice.
Here are a couple of links (One and Two) which describe the sacrament of penance and give a little historical background. Unfortunately, I did not enounter anything that would provide a scholarly rebuttal of the claim made by your Reformed pastor. But they do provide at least an informal presentation of the sacrament’s history.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 11:57 am |
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prairie wrote: I recently was told by my Reformed pastor that the early church practiced corporate confession rather than individual confession. Is there evidence that he is right or wrong? In particular, are there quotes from the Fathers on this?
I agree with David that this is a half truth. The western Church developed the concept of individual confession in a "confessional" through Irish missionaries in the second half of the first millennium. In the east, to this day, confession is a private act but it takes place in public. In other words, the priest stands before the icon wall and the penitant kneels before him, confessing his sins and receiving absolution. Anyone present can see the confession but not hear what's going on. The confession is both public and private.
In the early Church, it appears that confession involved only the most serious sins (adultery, murder, apostacy) and could only be received once; penance was severe, sometimes taking years to complete; and absolution was reserved until the penance was complete. The actual confession appears to have taken place privately, but the rest of the process was public.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 02:54 pm |
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prairie wrote: I recently was told by my Reformed pastor that the early church practiced corporate confession rather than individual confession. Is there evidence that he is right or wrong? In particular, are there quotes from the Fathers on this?
Hi Prairie,
I suspect that your Reformed pastor is attempting to debunk the whole teaching, kit and kaboodle, regarding the sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation in in the Catholic Church. From what I, as a Protestant on the road to Rome have noticed, is that at every Mass there is a public confession of sins, so to speak. That is, the whole congregation asks for forgiveness of their sins when they say, "I confess, to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned in thought, word and deed." I don't, offhand, recall the rest of what is said. But to me, that would qualify as a "public confession."
BTW, from which sources is your Reformed pastor getting his information? Also, was anything else said in your conversation, that you can recall, regarding the sacrement of confession/reconciliation?
My prayers are with you Prairie. Protestants from the Reformed "camp" are especially anti-Catholic. However, itiis really and truly more out of ignorance than an understanding of what Catholic's actually believe. Now is where that quote from Bishop Sheen would come in handy. Something to the effect that people don't hate what the Catholic Church teaches, but rather what they believe the Catholic Church teaches. Anhone know the quote verbatum?
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Apr 26th, 2007 05:18 pm |
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Sorry for all those typos. I was typing quickly and was interrupted by a phone call and then didn't check my spelling. 
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 08:52 am |
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| What is the role of the priest in the confession, what about in the scriptures where it declares; "there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus?"
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:18 am |
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According to the Council of Trent, in the sacraments the priest acts in persona Christi. In other words, by his office he is the means by which Christ is made tangible to the person living today, Christ then working through the priest. It is for this reason that at the consecration of the Mass he says “This is my body” instead of “This is Christ’s body.” Also, in the sacrament of penance, he says not “May God absolve you” but “I absolve you.” Thus the sole mediatorship of Christ is preserved.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:28 am |
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| It is undeniable that there have been priests who have been in grevious sin while holding their office, I can't help but wonder if this verse would apply in such a case; "the pharasies sit in the seat of Moses, so do whatever they say, but do not be like them." Last edited on Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:29 am by Candlemass
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Ali
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 09:46 am |
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Candlemass wrote: It is undeniable that there have been priests who have been in grevious sin while holding their office, I can't help but wonder if this verse would apply in such a case; "the pharasies sit in the seat of Moses, so do whatever they say, but do not be like them."
No matter how perfect God is, we are imperfect, and that most definately includes religious people. God does the best he can with what he has to work with. We need to see God's good works in the corrupt people he works through, and leave the rest. Easier said than done, to be sure.
Ali
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 2nd, 2007 03:50 pm |
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Yes, Mark, I think that verse is quite appropriate. It tells us clearly that if those in authority in the Church are “less than perfect,” it does not affect the validity of their ecclesiastical and sacramental function.
David
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 11:56 am |
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Hi all-
I had read/heard that, way back in the day, Catholics visited the cathedrals once a year (during Lent - and possibly Good Friday), made public confession and performd public penance on the cathedral stairs.
There was an island territory that had difficulties crossing the water to get to the mainland cathedral, and their parish started hearing individual confessions, because they couldn't get to the cathedral.
As time went on, this practice spread until it became what we have today.
I'm pretty sure I read this in an article about a Saint
God bless everyone. Happy Mother's Day!
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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prairie
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 08:34 pm |
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Thank you for all your thoughts. It's been a while since we had the conversation, but I don't remember any surrounding discussion about the sacrament of reconciliation. I remember the context being something about whether the Catholic church really does have history on her side or not. Your prayers are greatly appreciated as my husband and I investigate this and many other issues.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 09:18 pm |
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Of course, Prairie, there would be no mention of the sacrament of penance from your Reformed pastor. It’s against his religion.
Anybody can make a declaration, and the bolder it is, the more people believe it, regardless of its actual truth value. The few Reformed ministers I’ve seen in action have all started with statements like, “The Council of Trent proves that the Catholic Church added those seven ‘extra’ books to the Old Testament.” I don’t know how representative those few are, but they sure seem to have stood history on its head.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 09:25 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: I don’t know how representative those few are, but they sure seem to have stood history on its head.
I saw a comedy routine last night on history where the comic was lecturing a college history class on real history versus common beliefs. I can only assume that the things he said were correct; the few that I actually knew were in fact right. One example was that Columbus "discovered" America when we all know today that America had been discovered long before by Norse seafarers; also, that Columbus was trying to prove the earth is round, when Aristotle had first proposed it thousands of years before.
Anyway, he made the statement, "When the facts become legend, print the legend." That's what Protestants do with Catholic history. They no longer are concerned with fact; they print the legend.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2007 10:33 pm |
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| There have been wicked preists, and even popes. But the truth of the faith has survived since antiquity in the Caholic Church. We are to rely on the promise of Christ to the church in John 17 (He will be with us to the end of the age) and not on the integrity of every individual in authority.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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