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JillD
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 05:37 pm |
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I'm still trying to come to an understanding, if it's even possible to find out, of just how the Lord's Table was lifted out of its context within the Passover meal. Are there any writings about that, but especially, are there any writings by Jewish believers of just how that came to be?
If no one here at CHN knows, do you know whom I might ask, someone who's very knowledgeable about the writings of the earliest Church fathers?
Thank you!
Jill
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 06:43 pm |
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The apostles and the first generation of Christians were indeed Jews and remained faithful to the Jewish faith until they were expelled from the Temple. In other words, they didn't leave Judaism, Judaism left them.
As such, they had to construct their own practices. The Eucharist was the first, taking place even while they were still at Temple but on the following day. After the expulsion (and sooner in gentile areas) a "temple service" (what we now call the Liturgy of the Word) was added before the banquet to make a complete "Christian" worship service, the beginning of today's mass. It was practiced much as it is today within the first century of the Christian Era.
Does that answer your question?
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Rick Luquette
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 07:41 pm |
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HI Rick,
Yes, and no. Were any of those whose writings we have Jewish? I mean, men like Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus etc.? I don't think any of those were Jewish, but I could be wrong. We have the New Testament, written by nearly all Jews (except Luke, right?), but I'm not sure if there are any non-Biblical Jewish writers.
Do you have the references for what you were saying about the temple service/Liturgy of the Word?
I'm still trying to find references for how the Passover became the Lord's Table and am not finding any! I'd be most happy if the author of something like that were a Jewish believer. I even got to call in to Catholic Answer Live this week and speak to Steve Ray on the day he was talking about the Apostolic Fathers, but he couldn't help me either....
Frustrated!
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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HelenRose
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 08:15 pm |
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It is my understanding that Christ was the author of the Eurcharist. We follow the pattern He set when He and His disciples were celebrating the Passover feast.
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 08:22 pm |
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HelenRose wrote: It is my understanding that Christ was the author of the Eurcharist. We follow the pattern He set when He and His disciples were celebrating the Passover feast.
I'm in conversation with some believers who take a more Jewish perspective who do not believe that. If, however, I could find something in writing, especially if it came from a Jew, it would go far in supporting what you said. From just reading Scripture, the transition from Passover to Lord's Table is not clear at all. And since they're not Catholic, "The Church's" opinion doesn't matter much. But even the Church must have had a reason for its opinion and I'm hoping that at least part of it is because of things the early Church fathers wrote.
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HelenRose
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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I sure wish I had at my finger tips the information you need. When my husband became a Catholic last Easter, our Priest lead the RCIA class in an authentic Jewish Passover Meal.
Each step of the meal was explained from the Jewish Instructions we were using and the Priest explained the corresponding steps that are followed during the Mass.
It was fasinating and because of the knowledge this Priest has of Jewish history and customs there is no doubt in my mind that the Passover Feast and the Catholic Mass are intrinsically intertwined.
Last edited on Thu Jan 17th, 2008 08:48 pm by HelenRose
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HelenRose
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 09:03 pm |
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It will be of interest to me to see what this forum can come up with in regard to the early history of the Mass.
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:38 pm |
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You see, my friends still celebrate the Passover. It's their only Eucharistic celebration - just once a year. They fully appreciate all the Christian/Messianic symbolism in the Seder meal. Indeed, we used to observe Passover each year and worship as they do - my husband is a Jewish believer - so we also found it amazing how the Seder tells not only the story of the Jewish exodus from Egypt, but also the Christian's release from bondage to sin through the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
Again, I'm looking for something that tells the "thinking" that went into the transition from Passover to the Lord's Table. Their claim is that Jesus, being a Jew, would not even recognize the Lord's Table as we celebrate it today. He'd say, "Oy vey, where are the bitter herbs and the four cups??? This is no Passover!"
I'd just like to know how the transition happened.
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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HelenRose
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 11:51 pm |
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| I will keep an eye on this thread because I would like to know also.
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mg57
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Posted: Fri Jan 18th, 2008 02:11 am |
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Jill -
Scott Hahn did a tape set years ago called "The Lamb's Supper" and if I recall correctly it was mostly from a scriptural perspective, with less information from early Church writers / leaders.
Resources found outside of scripture on the Eucharist include - the Didache ( Did-uh-kay), and the writings of Justin Martyr, Cyprian, and Irenaeus to name a few. I apologize for not having specific references right now, but they are certainly cited in Jurgens, and Patrology by Johannes Quasten, and elsewhere.
When studying Church history, and when discussing these things with non-Catholic Christians, it's important to remember to try to use references that most directly present the original writings without added commentary.
There's a lot of books on "Christian History" out there that contain a ton of additional "commentary" (read denominational "spin", - as well-intentioned as they may be), so be prudent in the selection of resources.
Hope that helps a little for now :?.
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:49 am |
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Shalom!
I am a Messianic Jewish believer who is currently in RCIA classes. Part of the answer to the question of the Lord's Supper may lie with the Essenes who wrote/copied the Dead Sea Scrolls at their community in Qumran by the Dead Sea. There are many similarities between the Qumran community and the early church. The rites and customs of the Qumran community predate the 1st C AD, so they existed prior to influence from Christian Jews.
The Qumranites were estranged from the Jerusalem Temple establishment, so they had to develop a liturgy that substituted for Temple sacrifices, much like the early Christians did. They used the same Scripture Isaiah 40.3 that was used by John the Baptist (in a different way) to explain why they separated from the Jewish community to form a male celibate monastic community in the desert. (There were also Essenes who lived within the cities of Judea in the 1st Century; these married and had children and lived among the common Israelites.)
The Qumranites had a communal meal with holy food. Only those who had passed a two year initiation period were eligible to partake of the holy food and drink. After the two year period, the initiate's possessions were merged with those of the entire Qumran community. All possessions were then held in common, similarly to the church in the first chapters of Acts.
Also, the Qumranite who partook of the feast had to be holy in lifestyle and have been washed in a ceremony quite similar to the mikvah used for conversion to Judaism or to Christian baptism. The Qumranites believed that this "baptism" would not avail them unless there had been a prior repentance from sin in the heart. Theirs was a "baptism of repentance" similar to John the Baptist's rite. A Qumranite who was found to be in violation of their stringent ethical standards would not be eligible to participate in their holy meal.
The Qumranites believed that their holy meal also brought them into community with the angels of heaven, as well as the Messiah. They believed in two Messianic figures: a priestly and a kingly Messiah. A special communal meal was held on Pentecost, since the date of Pentecost coincides in the Hebrew calendar with the date of the first Covenant when the Israelites received the Torah through Moshe at Sinai. The Qumranites, like the early Christians, saw themselves as the vanguard of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah, though their understanding of the New Covenant was quite different from that of the early Christians.
Clearly, there are many similarities in form between the Qumran holy communal meal with its holy food and drink and the Catholic mass.
It may be that early Christians looked to the Qumranite community as the only visible example of a community separated unto God out of the population of Israelites in the first century. They may have consciously (or unconsciously) modeled their community after the pattern of the Essenes. In general, while there are many similarites of form between Christians and Essenes, the two groups understood these rites and practices in very different ways.
You may want to pick up a copy of the Qumran sectarian writings that describe their common life. There is a good translation of the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls by Geza Vermes published Penguin books. A paperback version sells over Amazon.com for about $13.00.
Hope this helps!
Shalom!
Henry
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 05:46 am |
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Hi Henry,
That is fascinating. Would you say it's possible that the Eucharist was modeled after the Qumranite holy meal more than after the Passover? From what you've described, it makes a great deal of sense and explains that the Eucharist did not arise from Passover, though it was probably first celebrated at the Passover. Then again, I've been reading that because John's Gospel is so different, some say that it was not an actual Passover meal, but one eaten the night before. Either way, Passover could remain Passover, and the holy meal could have become the Eucharist. This makes more sense from a Jewish perspective, too. It does seem difficult to understand how the early believers who were all Jews would simply drop the celebration of Passover and exchange it for the Eucharist, at least at first. Clearly, a full observance of Passover became impossible once the temple was destroyed.
Indeed, this is all very interesting...
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Howard the Pilgrim
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 06:07 am |
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Hi Jill,
Did your husband journey into the Catholic Church with you?
I have a nephew who has gotten involved in a Messianic Jewish Christian church. He is a Gentile but he has really grown spiritually since becoming part of that congregation.
The Journey Home program with the Jewish converts roundtable was fascinating. So many similarities between Judaism and Catholicism.
One of the things I have found attractive about the Catholicism is that there is more of a physical/tangible identity as the people of God with the church calendar, fast days, etc than there is in most Protestant churches.
May God bless you and your desire to explain the Catholic Church to your Messianic Jewish friends.
Howard
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:55 pm |
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Hi Jill,
I think it is more likely that the early church adapted the Passover meal to a different set of conditions, just as the Qumranites adapted their meal to their circumstances. Their meal may, in fact, be a translation of the seder from the Passover context to the Pentecost context of the New Covenant. The Qumran adaptation got me thinking.... Don't have time now for a thorough response, but here's the line of thought:
The Messianic synagogue I often attend, Beth Yeshua in Phila--HQ of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, and one of the most noted Messianic synagogues in the world, practices communion, but not in the form of a full seder. Matzah and grape juice are used. Why do we suppose this is so? Given that they certainly know and understand the seder as well as any congregation could?
1. The seder is an annual meal in Torah, not a frequent, even weekly meal--such as the Shabbat meal. There is no legal mandate or any suggestion in Torah that Jews should celebrate a full seder--quite an undertaking, even from a cooking perspective--except on 14 Nissan.
2. As an example, the Shabbat meal is a weekly meal that includes bread and wine, but not bitter herbs. To include the bitter herbs on a weekly basis as part of a Eucharist celebration doesn't seem to make sense.
3. There is no NT reference in the Gospels or Epistles which requires believers to acknowledge the bitter herbs, the drops of wine for judgments against the Egyptians, etc. Yeshua only required us to remember him in the bread and wine.
4. For Gentiles, for whom the seder is not legally binding (Acts 15 Council did not require Gentiles to submit to Torah obligations), it makes no sense at all to require a full seder as part of a regular Eucharist. They could not understand the meaning, nor are they required to do so.
5. The seder is a meal to be enjoyed in the home of a family. It was not designed for celebration in a large group meeting that included hundreds or even thousands of individuals in a single location. The church of the initial chapters of Acts, while still entirely Jewish , celebrated Eucharist in individual homes on a frequent basis. Once the context moves to large group meals (in which the deacons must now ensure that the Hellenistic Jewish widows get their fair share of food), clearly this context has changed. The seder doesn't work well as a model for such a group. Once this group also includes Gentiles, the seder model doesn't work at all.
Clearly, the seder had to be adapted to meet the conditions of the church as it developed through the ages.
The Jewish tradition recognizes an on-going development of ritual through "halakhah" (means "way to walk" in Hebrew). These are Rabbinic ordinances that are binding on Orthodox Jews as to how to celebrate a seder. For instance, the earliest Rabbinic regulations for the seder are in tractate Pesachim of the Mishnah (200 AD). The Mishnaic regulations were subsequently interpreted in the Gemara by later Talmudic rabbis. The rule of thumb for halakhah is that the latest (most recent ruling) on how a law in Torah or Mishnah is to be interpreted is binding. This is because the most recent ruling is most likely to apply better to current situations. So, the seder itself has changed over history. For example the custom of setting a cup and place at the table for Elijah dates only from the Middle Ages.
If the Jewish tradition recognizes a fluid and ongoing adaptation of the seder to current conditions according to the rulings of acknowledged rabbinic leaders, it seems reasonable that acknowledged leaders of the early church could likewise adapt the Eucharist to the conditions of the developing church. To forbid them this authority is manifestly UNJewish!
So, your friends' question about Jesus not recognizing the seder in the Catholic Eucharist because there is no reference to bitter herbs is really not based upon valid Jewish logic. There is no reason within Jewish thought or precedent why a frequent, even weekly, meal should mimic the annual seder!
I think this line of thinking removes the objection?
Henry
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:55 pm |
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Howard the Pilgrim wrote: Hi Jill,
Did your husband journey into the Catholic Church with you?
I have a nephew who has gotten involved in a Messianic Jewish Christian church. He is a Gentile but he has really grown spiritually since becoming part of that congregation.
The Journey Home program with the Jewish converts roundtable was fascinating. So many similarities between Judaism and Catholicism.
One of the things I have found attractive about the Catholicism is that there is more of a physical/tangible identity as the people of God with the church calendar, fast days, etc than there is in most Protestant churches.
May God bless you and your desire to explain the Catholic Church to your Messianic Jewish friends.
Howard
Hi Howard,
No, my husband is very accepting of my conversion, but he's not there - yet. I keep praying for him and for our daughters. Their preference is for the Anglo-Catholic church and my husband is Lutheran, so they're all "close," but not quite there. They do appreciate liturgy and believe their churches offer the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, so they are open to much of what the Catholic Church offers in the Mass. They all just have a few hang-ups and I pray that with time, they'll come into the fullness of the CC. I haven't pushed, because it won't be my nagging that brings them in. I pray that inconsistencies in what their churches teach will lead them to pursue Truth, the goal that many who came into the Church had that brought them in.
We, too, followed a Messianic Jewish style of faith practice for a few years. It was so interesting and fulfilling, to understand our faith from a Jewish perspective. Indeed, there is much that we just don't "get" when we approach Scripture from a 21st century Gentile frame of mind. Nothing essential is missing, but a certain sense of culture and history that seems to give one a feeling of "being there" that is hard to duplicate otherwise. Ideally, a Jewish understanding would enlighten, not change, our Catholic understanding, especially of the Old Testament Scriptures. They've wrestled with those books for thousands of years and have so much insight. I occasionally reread a teaching about speech, the tongue, that came to me from a non-Christian Jewish source. It's very convicting and very true and I don't think I've read anything like it in Christian writings. This is the link to it, if you have any interest: http://www.aish.com/torahportion/shragasweekly/The_Power_of_Speech.asp
And yet, we found a faith based in MJ'ism to be very constricting and very intolerant and critical. I also could not make sense of what I understood the Bible to say in one place vs. what it taught in another when looked at with a MJ mindset. I was completely frustrated! It was also very difficult to find a congregation with whom to meet for worship. So, we moved on, as my "Faith History" indicates, always seeking a "first century church." It took about 15 years (!), but I've finally found that Church!
I agree with you about the similarities of Jewish and Catholic worship. My husband, who was raised in Long Island and attended an Orthodox synagogue, recognized it right away. I, too, have come to love the church calendar that is as regular as the four seasons and gives our life with Christ a pattern and rhythm that deepens every year. I entered the Church last April and I am certain that Advent this past year was more meaningful than the year before as I am sure that this coming Lent will be over Lent last year (though looking forward to the Easter Vigil added much excitement and expectation!).
Indeed, "the Church"!! It wasn't until I became Catholic that I BEGAN to understand this concept in its fullness. I am a part of a living and breathing organism that has been since the beginning. It's not just "me and Jesus and my Bible," though that may be adequate, but it's not all there is. I feel the organic connection that exists among believers, both living today and in the past and even in the future!
Jill
Last edited on Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:56 pm by JillD
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 03:00 pm |
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JillD wrote: Indeed, this is all very interesting...
It certainly is, Jill. I think it helps to explain why the Church has always considered Christianity as the evolution of Judaism rather than as a radical departure.
Tradition tells us that John the Baptist was a member of the Essene community, possibly sent to them by his parents at an early age in preparation for his ministry to "declare the way of the Lord". Jesus himself sought John at the beginning of his public ministry, cited him as the greatest of humans, and mourned his death. John sent his followers to Jesus. There was clearly a close relationship between the followers of John and the followers of Jesus.
In my opinion, there is no doubt that the early Christians drew heavily on the beliefs of the Essenne community at Qumran. The description of the Christian community in Acts bears a close resemblance to the Essene community, as Henry has explained so well. Monastic life may well have been patterned after the Essenes, as was the chosen lifestyle of great mystics liks St. Anthony the Hermit, and the 40-day fast in the dessert of Jesus himself. The Essenes may have been the first community of celibate, itinerant preachers, prefiguring the ministry of Christ himself and making it acceptable to a people who previously had considered marriage a virtual necessity. In a sense, without communities such as the Essenes, the ministry of Jesus would not have been a cultural possibility.
The early Christians most likely saw in the Essene worship a similarity to the Passover meal, as well as to the sacrifice of Melchizadek and the Wedding Feast at Cana, combined and summarized and glorified in the book of Revelations. The Eucharist is all of these and so much more, all rolled into one Perfect Offering.
David especially cites the "either/or" mentality of Protestantism as compared to the "both/and" mentality of Catholicism. The Eucharist is not based on the Essene feast instead of Passover; it is a re-presentation of all of these bloodless offerings fulfilled in the true re-presentation of the Lamb of God in his eternal Sacrifice on the Cross, in the glorified resurrected flesh and blood of the Precious Body and Blood. It is the eternal offering given once for all but celebrated eternally in heaven, brought to the altar by Christ through the priest in the action where heaven "kisses" earth in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is where time meets timelessness, where eternal perfection meets sinful humanity on its path to both death and resurrection.
It is the perfect offering of the perfect victim to the perfect God, who invites us to be present! How Great is our God??!!!??
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 03:10 pm |
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Eeeek! I've got goosebumps! I hate it when there are "gray areas" of my understanding and this Passover/Eucharist thing has bothered me for years. Between you two, Rick and Henry, the picture is coming into focus for me! Because the vast preponderance of Catholic teaching has had the ring of truth for me, I have accepted the full package and accept that somehow Passover became Eucharist. But I have a scientific mind and "somehow's" bug me! And then when my friends niggled me about it, I was terrible frustrated that I couldn't find an answer for them.
I think you guys have hit the nail on the head! THANK YOU!!!!
Jill
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hpj0828
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 07:33 pm |
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Rick,
You have certainly, "waxed poetic" in this beautiful response! I am curious to trace the RC tradition of John the Baptist being sent to the Essenes as a child. Can you tell the source of the tradition--where it first appears?
Thanks!
Henry
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 08:31 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: I am curious to trace the RC tradition of John the Baptist being sent to the Essenes as a child. Can you tell the source of the tradition--where it first appears?
No, sorry, I really can't. It's one of those things I have always "known". I probably learned it as a teen, but I've never researched it myself. Anne Rice did considerable historical research for her novel Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt and she includes a reference to Jesus' cousin John being sent to Qumran to live with the Essenes. Perhaps her bibliography might give some clue as to her source.
The Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent has an interesting article on the Essenes, although it was written many years before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and so before much of our current knowledge was discovered. According to American Catholic, John's baptism closely resembled an Essene ritual cleansing. His lifestyle also resembled the Essene practice of living off the land and not eating any food not caught or prepared by the person himself. The Essenes also believed in celibacy.
A second article in American Catholic stresses the commonality between the ministries of John and Jesus, and is also quite interesting.
The three leading Jewish sects of the time were the Pharisees, the Sadducces, and the Essenes. Jesus frequently criticized the first two, but no one ever recorded any statements criticizing the Essenes by name. The early Christians also spoke against the Jewish establishment (Pharisees and Sadducces) but not the Essenes.
So some of the evidence is circumstantial and none to my knowledge is written in any formal source like the writings of the early Fathers. But the ministries of John and Jesus at least drew heavily on the Essene community, and early Christianity as described in Acts mirrors the Essene community quite closely; too closely, in my opinion, for there to have been no connection.
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Rick Luquette
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hpj0828
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| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 136 |
| First Name: | Henry | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Messianic Jewish believer |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 12:50 am |
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Jesus did criticize the Essene belief in hating one's enemies in the sermon on the mount:
"You have heard it said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say ...."
This doctrine was not of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Torah. The only Jewish source of the 1st C to which it can be traced is the Essenes. They emphatically taught this in their Manual of Discipline (similar to the Benedictine Rule as a guide to all aspects of monastic life at Qumran)
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[size=•]“And these are the norms of conduct for the man of understanding in these times, concerning what he must love and how he must hate. Everlasting hatred for all the men of the Pit because of their spirit of hoarding…” Dead Sea Scrolls 1QS 9.21-23.
Where the men of the Pit are defined as anyone who is not an Essene, whether Jewish or Gentile. The Essenes expected an end times battle between the Essenes and God's angels and all other men and Belial (the devil) and the demons. In this battle, God's forces (Essenes) would destroy all their enemies eternally. The Essenes concealed their hatred for non-Essenes until it should be revealed in this final eschatological battle.
H.
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HPJ
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Jackie
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| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 114 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:02 am |
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wow....you guys are making me hit the google button like crazy tonight. 
These are things I would never have considered all by myself.....what food for thought. I can't wait to see this tomorrow
hhmmm, how do you get rid of this box? Seriously, I was gonna delete it but it's my elephant now, it won't leave the room 
Jill, I ordered a fine book from Alfred McBride, O.PREAM. called "A SHORT HISTORY OF THE MASS". I'm moving towards chapter three titled, The Eucharist in the Age of the Fathers. I don't know if it will reveal an answer to the most interesting thought you posed here, but I sure can't wait to see what will be revealed. I don't know how I managed it but I've got two books going at once. In light of this thread I'll be reading this one before bed tonight. lol
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 600 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:44 am |
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Jackie wrote: I don't know if it will reveal an answer to the most interesting thought you posed here, but I sure can't wait to see what will be revealed. I don't know how I managed it but I've got two books going at once. In light of this thread I'll be reading this one before bed tonight. lol
Let us know if you find some info that will add to the discussion.
Blessings,
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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