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lifetone
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 4th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:24 pm |
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Hi guys, I actually have a rather profound question for you (possibly - I can never tell.) I've read the Catechism on this issue but to me there is still something ineffable about exactly what Tradition is. Perhaps it is by nature ineffable. I've gotten the impression that even serious Catholics aren't sure what is Tradition as opposed to tradition.
I guess I want to be 100% sure that I believe what I'm supposed to believe before I take the final plunge.
In my mind, Tradition is kind of like the administrative/case law and Scripture is like the statutory law. Tradition is the necessary counterpart to Sacred Scripture in applying it for example in such matters as respecting the Eucharist (without respect to local forms but in a general sense), not allowing abortion or homosexuality, you know minor little things like that. Tradition applies Scripture when application is needed in an authoritative manner. It has helped to develop Scripture in fostering that atmosphere in which it is written. And therefore it is in a sense ineffable and not strictly literary in nature. By definition.
To be a bit clearer one of those evil things I was told as a Protestant was that Catholics *add* to the Bible. And I don't just mean those extra 7 books you"add" but that Tradition means the Early Church Fathers and the Pope. But that Tradition has a historical cut-off point AFTER the Bible was finished but certainly way before modern times, except for the Pope - or something. Depended on who you talk to and how bad their day was. 
Anyway people say this extra-Scriptural Tradition is what the pope uses to justify himself. Just as the Book of Mormon justifies that system by adding to Scripture.
If that were true in any sense, even if it were true, Tradition would seem rather confusing to me. If Tradition is purely what is in writing why not include it in the Bible?
Rather it seems to me that Tradition includes even present day and present time.
And sort of all those mutually evident things we'd like to say are a matter of "common sense" - only all too often they're not. And so we strongly benefit from an authority present even now to address those issues - without supplanting Scripture but working together with it.
I wasn't really clear if that's what the Catechism taught though. Even it seems to sound at times as if this were something that ended back in like AD 200 or something..
If this was already answered I apologize and also for my inability to make this clear. My prose is a bit dense probably, sorry! If there is another place I can go for an answer let me know. If it sounds like what I believe is 'good enough' that's cool. I asked a friend of mine about this before and he said that I didn't really get what Tradition is because I was trying to contextualize it in the present-day too much, implying that Tradition can change which he was quite adamant it does not change.
But it's not that either. Not that it changes. More than it remains constant in responding to the needs of the present time in an appropriate way. And then as now there are probably seriously serious practices (how to actually come to the Lord's table for example) which are better expressed in actions than words. If that makes any sense. For me, it is like the difference between reading a script and actually watching the play - and in this case, unlike say Shakespeare, context can matter big time.
I'm not trying to downplay the constancy of Tradition. It's just on a mental level if it's simply more 'writings' than it would by definition be the same as Scripture. Also that would explain when in RCIA a priest and a deacon were arguing about a certain matter and whether it was Tradition, unchangeable, or tradition, could be changed. The deacon said it was tradition because it hadn't always been done that way. I won't even repeat what that matter was because in my heart I thought, Lord, let the magisterium decide how the Scriptures apply in this area and I will accept their judgment. If they say it is Tradition I will accept that. If it is simply tradition but is to be done in any rate I'll accept that too.
God bless!
Anne
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:37 pm |
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Hi Anne,
Excellent question and inquiry. One must distinguish between lower-case tradition and upper-case Tradition. The former can possibly be changed; the latter cannot, if they are matters of proclaimed dogma. There is also "traditions of men," which in the Bible is usually presented as a bad thing.
I think one of the finest treatments of Tradition on a more popular level is Mark Shea's article What is Sacred Tradition? It's a bit long, so I won't cite it here, but I would urge you to read that, and then if you want to discuss it, I and others would be happy to do that.
You might also be interested in looking over one or more of my "introductory" papers on the topic of Tradition:
The Three-Legged Stool of Catholic Christian Authority: a Brief Explanation
Tradition is Not a Dirty Word
And an audio file:
Why We Need More Than the Bible (my talk on Catholic Answers Live: 10-10-03)
Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:38 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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lifetone
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 4th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:57 pm |
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Thanks much for your quick response! It looks like what I was thinking, pretty much and this even answered a few questions I didn't know I had.
I'm on the website now. Slow day at work. Sigh..
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lifetone
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| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 09:52 pm |
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Hi again! That was so awesome that I finished reading it when I got home. I'm afraid I don't really have much to add or say. That was awesome. I feel kind of like when you are in class and the teacher gives you something to read and asks you to questions and you're like ... I don't have any!
But I really did read it.
It sounds like what I was thinking was correct after all. That was really well written and funny too. It had me a bit nervous when it started questioning the Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, and so on. I thought ... oh no, this isn't going to be one of *those* articles. And then it did uphold those doctrines and my heartrate returned to normal and all was well.
That's exactly what I thought and I think if more of us Protestants got that ... ah well. Thanks! That made me feel a lot better. I really was kinda worried and I asked my friend and he didn't help too much. He says I think too much. Probably true. But yes, I totally get that. It is one of the things I admire about the Catholic Church. I had a real serious problem, in all seriousness with going to wonderful churches with wonderful people where all of a sudden it's like..
Oh yes and you have to believe that God is going to take away all of us and leave the rest of the world to suffer for 7 years and anyone who gets this mark on their forehead or hand during that time is going to spend eternity in hell. Oh, and that Jesus is the Son of God. Also important to believe.
See, that whole business of expressing truth in this present climate makes perfect sense to me and I think we'd all agree if we think about it that we all have our "lenses" in reading the Bible. I've never yet been to that solipsist church taught how to read English by God Himself mind you! for the sole purpose of only ever reading the Bible and believing in it alone, which would also necessarily preclude them obeying Scripture which is an inherently extra-scriptural affair. Somehow, that has just never happened, probably because I haven't been to that alternate universe yet. Hm...seeing an episode of Star Trek out of this.
I don't really have anything to disagree with or question in that sorry! Thanks so much for sharing. Three more weeks. Three more weeks! Until, God willing, I get to partake of His body and blood for the first time..
Have a great one..
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Dave Armstrong
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 03:48 pm |
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| Excellent, Anne. It was my privilege to be of some service to you. God bless!
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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lifetone
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 4th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Wiccan/New Age, Pentecostal, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 06:02 pm |
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Thanks. Today is very busy at work but I needed a breather. I finally realized why this bugged me so much is that like a lot of things once I knew the truth it's not only like DUH but also like ... you mean it's really that simple? Part of me is so ... like all those evil things I heard about Catholicism and basically they just mean subject yourself to righteous authority? I keep thinking there must be more to it than that, like oh yes and by the way tomorrow the Bishop is going to ask you to start clubbing puppies or worshipping Krishna and You'll Have To Do It. Also, God bless them, but my Catholic friends don't always help when they're just like You have to believe it OR ELSE (but - but - no matter what??) or the other extreme like ... well you know that's what the leaders say but ... we all know that realistically that's not how it works.. Oh boy, okay back to work.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 01:45 am |
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lifetone wrote: I keep thinking there must be more to it than that, like oh yes and by the way tomorrow the Bishop is going to ask you to start clubbing puppies or worshipping Krishna and You'll Have To Do It.
I know you're being facetious here, but for the record, not even the pope can tell you to do something immoral. That's called "Primacy of Conscience". If your properly formed conscience tells you that something is against God's law, then no power on earth can command you to do it, and that is a teaching of the Church.
Let's say your bishop orders you to kill someone. Not only are you not bound to follow his orders, you would be morally responsible for doing so. God's natural law tells you it is wrong to kill, and that is a higher authority than any human, even if he sits in the Chair of Peter. So the puppies are safe, and you need never darken Krishna's door.
Jesus said love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself. Then he said go forth and do it. If we all were capable of doing just what Jesus said, there would be no need for a Church. Being sinful humans, we can't, so we need the Church to tell us how to be faithful and how to be moral and how to live and preach the word. All of Catholic teaching from Scripture through the Fathers to the Doctors of the Church and the Councils and popes, up to and including the current Ctechism of the Catholic Church and the encyclicals of Pope Benedict XVI are attempts to tell us how to love God and our neighbor.
And yes, it's that simple.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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lifetone
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 12:33 pm |
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LOL Rick. Yes, of course I was being facetious, but I do appreciate that note. In fact, I keep thinking that whenever the enemy is throwing the Truly Terrible Ideas at me. You know the ones where for a brief second you think ... but *within reason* right God?
I mean it is something people think and are told. As a matter of fact I'm having rather terrible flashbacks of things people have actually told me about Catholics, so unfortunately it is one of those things. Right up there with so ... Catholics do believe in not only praying to God but that He talks back? And you can have a relationship with God? Not just with Mary (although that too!)? Oh, and Catholics apparently read the Bible? Oh, and not only that but apparently they get more of it in an average church service than most Protestants? I'm thinking of all the pleasant surprises I've encountered over this winter.
I like this part, below, too. I actually think Pope Benedict is a great leader. He inspires me greatly, especially his humility and his zeal and his bookishness too. I'm currently reading like every book he ever wrote I can get my hands on. I've also read some of Pope John Paul II's which are awesome (but I prefer the current pope) and far more prescient than one would think. I used to think ... oh that's great for them to "be holy" over there in the Vatican, but what do they know? Evidently, quite a bit. I totally agree with that statement..
CajunRick wrote:Jesus said love God with your whole heart, soul, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself. Then he said go forth and do it. If we all were capable of doing just what Jesus said, there would be no need for a Church. Being sinful humans, we can't, so we need the Church to tell us how to be faithful and how to be moral and how to live and preach the word. All of Catholic teaching from Scripture through the Fathers to the Doctors of the Church and the Councils and popes, up to and including the current Ctechism of the Catholic Church and the encyclicals of Pope Benedict XVI are attempts to tell us how to love God and our neighbor.
And yes, it's that simple.
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