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Marcia
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| Location: | Butler, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Marcia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Christian Missionary Alliace, Evangelical Free, Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 11:22 am |
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I have a question about the Tenebrae service. Does anyone know what it represents? My church celebrated it last night and when I told a friend, she said that it should be done on Holy Thursday after the Lord's Supper because it represents Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. Later, I talked to someone from a different church who said that their church celebrates it Good Friday evening because it represents our sadness over sin and Christ's crucification. I am assuming that the darkness represents the sin of the world.
Also, a lot of people at our church hold hands when we pray the Our Father. We did this when I attended RCIA 2 years ago and the choir always this, but no one has ever explained the meaning of it. Members of the choir also squeeze each others hands at the end of the Our Father before we release them.
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Marcia
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 01:13 pm |
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The tenebrae service is traditionally done on Good Friday evening. It symbolizes the despair of the disciples at the death of Jesus. Remember that it is good to go through Holy Week day by day, not thinking ahead to Sunday. The extinguishing of the final candle symbolizes Jesus' death, that is why the noise was traditionally made then, to symbolize the earthquake sound and the rending of the temple veil. I used to be the noisemaker person in my Methodist church, I was up in the balcony with two low dissonant handbells and rang the nine tailors when the final candle was extinguished. Oh my, how Anglican!
Holding hands during the Our Father is not allowed, for obvious reasons. People were doing it and also using the orans posture which was also not allowed, being reserved for priests alone. Now the orans posture is allowed as a giveaway by the bishops, holding hands is still not. Actually it maybe wasn't such a good idea to allow the use of the orans posture by the laity for now I have noticed some people using another posture which is now reserved for priests alone (holding the hands up at shoulder height, palms forward during prayer, symbolizing Christ on the cross). Let people do one thing and they will take more and more until we are in disobedient Protestantland.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 06:01 pm |
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Annie wrote: Oh my, how Anglican!
Well, since Tenebrae predates the schisms by a few centuries, it would be more correct to say "How Catholic!"
New Advent has a great article on Tenebrae, which traditionally runs from the Wednesday of Holy Week to Good Friday (the last three days of Holy Week, representing Jesus' three days in the tomb). You'll find it here. Remember that the article was written for the Catholic Encyclopedia early in the 20th century, but it has a good history of the practice up to that point.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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| The Anglican reference is to tradition of ringing the nine tailors, which I think postdates the separation.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Thu Mar 20th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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Annie, what is the nine tailors? I learn something new every day!
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Marcia
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| First Name: | Marcia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Christian Missionary Alliace, Evangelical Free, Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 10:48 am |
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Annie wrote: Holding hands during the Our Father is not allowed, for obvious reasons. People were doing it and also using the orans posture which was also not allowed, being reserved for priests alone. Now the orans posture is allowed as a giveaway by the bishops, holding hands is still not.
Thanks for the info. Maybe it's because it's early in the morning and I can't think, but what are the "obvious reasons" that holding hands isn't allowed. We attended Mass at a different church last night and I noticed that people were holding hands during the Our Father there also. It makes me wonder if our diocese is doesn't want to upset us, so they still allow us to do it.
I have only attended the Mass of the Lord's Supper once before and that was 2 years ago when I joined the Catholic church and they had the tenebrae after this Mass. Last night, when we left church, the lights were still on and it didn't have the same impact on me as it did 2 years ago. According to the bulletin, this church doesn't even have a tenebrae sevice. I hope to be able to attend one at another Catholic church in our area tonight so that I can go through the same Easter experience I did when I joined the Church because it was so meaningful.
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Marcia
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Marcia
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 10:49 am |
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| In case I don't a chance to get back, I hope that everyone has a very blessed Easter! Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 10:59 am by Marcia
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Marcia
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Annie
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 01:27 pm |
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Holding hands horizontalizes the worship, goes the feeling of the majority of bishops. Some are disturbed that we already have made it too horizontal. The orans posture came into the Church from the pentecostals and that is why that makes people nervous.
Particularly disturbing is the open defiance such as in the post by JU2 here:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=135957
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Ali
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 01:59 pm |
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Annie wrote: orans posture
Perhaps it would be helpful to have the definition of this, as this forum was the first I heard it, and had to look it up some time ago 
From http://www.adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html
orans means praying; here it refers to the gesture of praying with uplifted hands, as the priest does during various parts of the Mass).
And I found this link helpful as well
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 02:20 pm |
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My parish holds hands during the Our Father. In fact, when the church is full, such as last night or 9:30 Mass, they stretch out across the isles and make long chains of people.
Once, while traveling, I was in a church where some held hands and some did not. The row I was in did but I had the feeling that there were not all in favor of it.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Annie
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 02:45 pm |
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BodRod wrote: My parish holds hands during the Our Father. In fact, when the church is full, such as last night or 9:30 Mass, they stretch out across the isles and make long chains of people.
Once, while traveling, I was in a church where some held hands and some did not. The row I was in did but I had the feeling that there were not all in favor of it.
Yup. Go with the flow... 
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Annie
Ora et labora
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 03:14 pm |
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Annie wrote: BodRod wrote: My parish holds hands during the Our Father. In fact, when the church is full, such as last night or 9:30 Mass, they stretch out across the isles and make long chains of people.
Once, while traveling, I was in a church where some held hands and some did not. The row I was in did but I had the feeling that there were not all in favor of it.
Yup. Go with the flow...
 Arrrrggghhh!!! Forgive me guys, but something in my Protestant bones really says this is much ado about nothing. Sorry...I know, I know, tradition tradition tradition. Sigh...it's this kind of stuff that puts brakes on my ride to Rome and makes me shake my head. "Oh, we don't want too much Protestantism in our tradition. Well....it's NOT about Protestantism.
It's about God and his body united together in worship and communion. Communal fellowship IS worship. One body, One Communion of Saints, Fellowshipping, Worshipping, as one Body, One unit, One wholeness, One with each other, linked, bound, sealed and delivered by the One and only Jesus Christ who is our head. We in unity, in harmony, in fullness, worship the head. It's NOT about my comfort level. It's not even about me. If the community hold hands or not, we are one. Our outward actions exhibit our oneness. Let's not argue over these things. If one Bishop allows it, go with it. If another Bishop says no, Go with it. Submit to your local authorities and get on with loving each other as Christ loves us.
Big Sigh...O.K. Big Rich has had his Protestant rant. I'll submit to authority when I sign the dotted line and live in submission to my priest, Bishop and Holy Father. Now...let's have some donuts (beignets) and coffee and sing kum bay ya.
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Annie
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:08 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: Communal fellowship IS worship.
Yes, that is a very Protestant definition of worship, not a Catholic definition. This is a major hurdle for some people who think they might want to convert and if somebody doesn't want to go by the Catholic definition of worship they will be desperately unhappy in the Catholic church.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:43 pm |
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Annie wrote: rbo4u2 wrote: Communal fellowship IS worship.
Yes, that is a very Protestant definition of worship, not a Catholic definition. This is a major hurdle for some people who think they might want to convert and if somebody doesn't want to go by the Catholic definition of worship they will be desperately unhappy in the Catholic church.
Maybe I don't understand. But when I see Jesus in someone else and I bring Christ to them in acts of love (charity) through a smile, handshake, gifts or whatever, isn't that an act of worship to Christ? (if you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me)
When all of us in the congregation turn toward the altar and tabernacle and adore Christ as he is in the host, isn't that an act of worship as a community as well as individually?
When, in the mass, under the "ad orientum" the priest faces the east/altar you have as one Catholic site has said the "whole liturgical assembly, priest and people, face the same way, they turn towards God to whom prayers and offerings are addressed in this common act of worship"
It goes on to say "the Mass is a common act of worship where priest and people together, representing the pilgrim Church, reach out for the transcendent God. "
Is not that a communal fellowship of worship? It seems to me my statement is Catholic.
I don't see that as a Protestant understanding. Again as I said, I realize when I join, I will submit to the ultimate authority of the church and all it's rubrics, whether I understand them or not.
Rich
Last edited on Fri Mar 21st, 2008 04:47 pm by rbo4u2
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Marcia
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 10:41 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote:
Arrrrggghhh!!! Forgive me guys, but something in my Protestant bones really says this is much ado about nothing. Sorry...I know, I know, tradition tradition tradition. Sigh...it's this kind of stuff that puts brakes on my ride to Rome and makes me shake my head. "Oh, we don't want too much Protestantism in our tradition. Well....it's NOT about Protestantism.
I didn't realize that this was considered to be a Protestant practice. I asked the question because I had never seen it done before I want to the Catholic church. You're definitely right when you say this isn't about Protestantism. I still have a lot of Protestant "bones" in my body and I'm not ashamed of it. Maybe that's why I am very easily offended by some people in the church that I joined. On this subject, the director of music at one of our local Catholic churches said that they sang a hymn recently that mentioned the rapture and his priest told him that it is hasn't been that long since they have been permitted to mention the rapture in the Church.
My husband's family has been Orthodox (under the Metropolitan, not the pope) for quite a while and there have been times at Mass when I have told him that it reminded me of his parents' church.
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Marcia
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 01:59 am |
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In my parish we hold hands in the Our Father and use the orans postion while doing so. Everyone seems to appreciate the demonstration of the bond of unity in Christ.
Singing about "the rapture" in mass strikes me as something bordering on the heretical. Everyone should read Paul Thigpen's book, "The Rapture Trap". He cites almost every NT verse pertaining to the end times. It amazes me that some protestants, who are so commited to "sola scriptura", can pick a few verses out of the bible and run wild with them to come up with doctrine teaching that that Christ will return at least two more times and Christians will escape the tribulation that is to take place before the appearance of Christ.
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 04:32 am |
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Yes prayer is communal. However, the first step is our individual personal relationship to God, without which prayer would be empty. The distinction should be: me and God first, then community with those who love God like I do. When the emphasis becomes "praying with people" rather than "praying to God as God tells us to worship Him" as the objective, prayer disintegrates into doing what other people want, not hurting feelings, being politically correct, "worship" that promotes the emotional high rather than the interior connection with God, etc.
When the Reformationists got rid of the Mass, emphasis had to be put on the group thing because the Sacrament no longer existed. The "conversation between priest and God" no longer occured in the absence of the priest. Without the purpose of the Mass, no priest, no Sacrifice, no petitioning prayer by the priest on our behalf - the Reformationists had to reduce the Mass to a prayer book, singing and the sermon. Without the Mass, the common person had only his own personal prayer on which to rely because this is all the Reformationists left them.   Thus the Reformationists left the people with "Cranmer's Table" or rather, an emphasis on the communal "meal" rather than the Sacrifice re-enacted as Christ directed us. The whole kit and caboodle had to be "de-Sacramentalized" and this is done by emphasizing community rather than God.
So its not that we shouldn't pray together, but the emphasis is that we pray first to God and that is what brings us together. Our focus on God first is what gives us the "community". "Community" and "communion" are the same root word. For the Catholic, the word "communion" is communion with God. We receive "Communion" which is Communion with God through the body of Jesus. This is on an individual, personal level. Our sanctification depends on this personal communion with God. We cannot get to heaven without it. The fact that we find ourselves in a group is because each of us focuses on God and that is the basis of the community.
The Reformationists had to put the emphasis on community and people because the Sacramental had been taken away. This is how Mass disappeared into banal "worship" and has been reduced to Broadway music, singing about “me”, and holding hands. This emphasis on the human aspect can only take away emphasis on God. I don't go to Mass to hold hands and chat with people. I enter the Church and genuflect in greeting to Jesus in the Tabernacle and that is where the focus of the Catholic must remain. You can talk to me in the parking lot, okay? [or at the Pierogie dinner, or at bingo, or over a beignet…] Its not that I don't love you, its that I go to Mass for God first.
I am not saying that we don't owe God adoration and personal prayer as a group. I'm saying that the emphasis is on God [vertical, upwards] rather than on the person beside me [horizontal].
Happy Easter y'all.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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BodRod
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 04:56 am |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: Happy Easter y'all.
And the same right back at you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Marcia
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 02:24 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: You can talk to me in the parking lot, okay? [or at the Pierogie dinner, or at bingo, or over a beignet…] Its not that I don't love you, its that I go to Mass for God first.
I agree with you 100% as to why I go to Mass. It really annoys me when I visit a Protestant church and can't spend time in prayer before the service because it is so noisy from everyone visiting with each other. I have Protestant friends who complain that they can't even pray during communion in their church because other people are too busy talking.  This church believes that the Holy Spirit is present in the bread and wine, but yet they show no respect for His presence during the communion service.
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Marcia
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Mar 22nd, 2008 03:45 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: When the emphasis becomes "praying with people" rather than "praying to God as God tells us to worship Him" as the objective, prayer disintegrates into doing what other people want, not hurting feelings, being politically correct, "worship" that promotes the emotional high rather than the interior connection with God, etc.
I could have highlighted most of what you wrote, as well as much of what others have written, but here I will insert: "Amen!"
I came out of the more-and-more congregation-oriented LCMS denomination. It seemed to be degenerating right before my eyes, and we were only in it for about 5 years! The attitude that the SERVICE has to be open and friendly and welcoming to those who are not Christian or are not Lutheran as the primary focus, well, to use a local expression: AY YI YI!!!
Indeed, as was said, love people after and before the Mass, during the week, AT HOME! But, I believe, if I were the only one in the nave, all alone, my lousy singing voice would be way too obvious, but other than that, there should be no difference in my experience of the Mass. How many times have we heard, "Jesus died for YOU and He would have done it if you were the only one who had ever sinned"?
Right now, I go to Mass alone. My family is elsewhere. I wish it were different, but, on the other hand, I can focus my experience entirely on Jesus for that one hour. No whispered conversations, etc. to distract me.
And the other thing is that congregation-oriented practices creep in one by one. If my journey had begun in Los Angeles, based on the 2 or 3 CCs I've visited and heard about down there, it would have stopped dead in its tracks. Why bother? I might as well go Anglo-Catholic if I want high liturgy and reverence. God bless my priest who kept Holy Family Church orthodox and who allowed me to see the practice of the Catholic faith as it is intended to be. Thanks be to God!
Jill
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 10:36 pm |
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Well this is very clear in the bible. "When three or more are gathered in my name I also am there." In my name. If it's giving a gift its not in Jesus' name. It's for the sake of giving. If we are saying the lords prayer it is in his name but nowhere does it say "And thou shalt grasp hands and sing regaee." It's about the individual. Forcing the congregation to hold hands is not right so I don't, even though my church does.
John
Last edited on Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 10:42 pm by Parodyonlife
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