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cxsmit5
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| Location: | Omaha, Nebraska USA |
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| First Name: | Cal | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | RCC (Easter Vigil 2005) < Worldwide Church of God (since ... |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 02:34 am |
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Tradition says that John and Mary went to Ephesus at some point and that she may have died there.
I am wondering if, in terms of catechesis, do you think Mary had more to teach John or John had more to teach Mary?
How do you react to the statement, "John studied under Mary"?
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Cal
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 03:24 am |
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Hi Cal. Yes, the apostle John was definitely in Ephesus for at least a short period. Tradition is unanimous on this point. And yes, there is a tradition that alleges that Mary, the mother of Jesus, accompanied him there. There is a competing tradition, however, that Mary remained the rest of her life in the Holy Land. There is no sure way to tell if either of these versions is true. (My personal conjecture is that John did not leave the Holy Land until after Mary was assumed into heaven, which according to some of the Fathers of the Church would have been when she was about 60 years old, some 12 years after the resurrection. The Ephesus tradition would require that she live until she was about 72, and there is a problem with the idea that, while anything is theoretically possible, an aged woman would be physically able to make such a long and perilous journey. For this reason, among others, I am inclined to consider the Ephesus tradition spurious.)
Regarding who was teaching whom, we must keep in mind the respective vocations of the apostle and the virgin mother. John, as the apostle, had the office of teacher; Mary did not. Mary was already about 48 years old at the time of Jesus’ death and resurrection (15 + 33 years nominally); this was pretty old by ancient standards. This does not mean that John received nothing from Mary, but I think that Jesus’ words on the cross, bidding John to take care of his mother, would point to Mary taking a subordinate role exteriorly, just as she had with her Son.
Mary is most Godlike in her humility. The Son of God showed the strength of his humility when he became incarnate, for he “emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:7–8). It is in this sense that I believe Mary would have taught John, not “in terms of catechesis.”
David
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 04:47 am |
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Of course, I am just speculating here, however, I would have to imagine that Mary did at least inform the apostles and disciples about what happened during the Annunciation, the time of her visitation to John the Baptist's Mother, the events surrounding the birth of Jesus and His infancy and childhood, etc. She was also apparently present when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles and also upon her of course so, especially in light of what was going on in that time of the resurrection of Jesus and His appearing to a number of people between then and his ascension, I woud imagine that both before and after then she would have been in much conversation with the apostles and disciples. A while back, I was watching a program on EWTN about a house in Ephesus which tradition says was Mary's house and a grave site which is suspected as having been John's grave site and so forth. If that is so, I would at least imagine that Christians who knew where Mary was may well have come to Ephesus and talked with her and have to suspect that she likely may have talked with Luke and possibly with Paul at some point, depending on when she was taken on to Our Father in Heaven. Like David said, I would imagine that she was always a humble servant of God in whatever she did, during her life, yet I would imagine that she was not silent and was likely doing what we are all supposed to do, telling people about Jesus and about what God had done for her and through her. I guess it would probably be like people and the press talking with parents and relatives of a Presidential candidate or other political candidate, particularly one who has or will have great power when elected. People contact them and want to know, "Who IS this man or woman, really? What's the 'scoop' on them, what were they like as a child and young person?" And so forth. So, I have to imagine that Mary probably DID tell them all about life with Jesus, about what she learned from Him, about her experiences with Him. I think that God guided those who wrote the Bible, commanding them about what He wanted to be in the scriptures, giving us the information we need, giving some information we would LIKE to have and NOT giving information which we do not need for whatever reasons. Like the apostle said, if everything was written down which could have been written down about Jesus, probably the whole world could not contain the books which would be written. I think that God wanted to keep it simple so that - from the most intelligent to the least intelligent - we can read and believe. And I think that Mary's message to us is the same that she gave to the servants at the marriage feast, pointing to Jesus, she tells us as she told them, "Do what He tells you!" 
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 05:15 am |
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I would imagine that she was not silent and was likely doing what we are all supposed to do, telling people about Jesus and about what God had done for her and through her.
Agreed. Certainly one can accept Mary as the source of information for a number passages in the Gospels and possibly in the early chapters of Acts of the Apostles as well. However, the question was not about this type of information, but about catechesis, and specifically about the “teaching” relationship between Mary and the apostle John. For this, the answer would, I believe, have to be that Mary was not a catechist and did not teach doctrine. This was John’s job from the beginning of his ministry. He would have received his early instruction from the rabbis and priests to whom he was known (cf. John 18:16) and later on from Jesus himself.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Of course, this is all speculation, so there can be no definitive answer.
I think John would have had much to learn from Mary. Jesus himself learned his humanity from her, while she would have absorbed and observed his divinity and his coming to grips with his two natures and learning to integrate them. Along with the stories of his childhood, she would have no doubt had much to relate to them about his early struggles to resolve these things. While not pertinent to scripture (and so not recorded except in the abstract) they would have given the apostles an insight into the early Jesus which helped them to understand him better and would have led them to the "fullness of truth" which helped them to understand the totality of the Christian message in a way that they passed on to us as the "Deposit of Faith", a teaching so vast that we are still uncovering layers upon layers of it today.
John, as the apostle responsible for Mary after the death of her son, no doubt spent much time with her, and I believe that time is responsible for his view of Jesus' divinity. His gospel is unique in that it expresses a fuller teaching on divinity as well as on the Eucharist, and he might well have understood those things more completely because of his time with Mary. A parent often has an insight into the thought processes of her child; Mary would have understood Jesus with a depth that the apostles could not have conceived since she began her understanding of him as he nursed at her breast.
David is right, of course, that John was called to the ministry of catechesis, but every mother is a teacher whether formally or informally. She teaches her child love, and love is the central gospel message. It is no mere coincidence, I think, that John is the one who tells us "God is love".
Anyway, that's my opinion, and that and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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